How to Hack a Poker Game

Last week, the US Justice Department published an indictment involving NBA stars and members of nan mob for allegedly moving a web of rigged gambling games. One of their rigging strategies was a manipulation of a Deckmate 2 automatic shuffling machine—almost identical to an research done by elder analogous Andy Greenberg and his hacking unit for WIRED’s Hacklab. Hosts Michael Calore and Lauren Goode beryllium down pinch Andy to break down really nan machines tin beryllium compromised, and what nan vulnerabilities down it opportunity astir our tech devices astatine large.

Articles mentioned successful nan episode:

• How Hacked Card Shufflers Allegedly Enabled a Mob-Fueled Poker Scam That Rocked nan NBA
• Hackers Rig Casino Card-Shuffling Machines for ‘Full Control’ Cheating

You tin travel Michael Calore connected Bluesky astatine @snackfight, Lauren Goode connected Bluesky astatine @laurengoode, and Andy Greenberg connected Bluesky astatine @agreenberg. Write to america astatine uncannyvalley@wired.com.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Michael Calore: Hey, Lauren. How are you doing?

Lauren Goode: Hey, Mike. I'm good. How are you?

Michael Calore: I americium awesome today. Thanks.

Lauren Goode: You seldom perceive that. Happy for you.

Michael Calore: Before we dive into nan show, I person to ask, are you a poker player?

Lauren Goode: Not exactly.

Michael Calore: What do you mean “not exactly”?

Lauren Goode: No, I mean, truthful you've astir apt heard of this small point called CES—

Michael Calore: Yeah.

Lauren Goode: —that happens each twelvemonth successful Las Vegas. So for respective years I would spell screen CES often for your squad and would play a small spot of pai gow poker. Are you acquainted pinch pai gow?

Michael Calore: Oh, yeah. It's 1 of those games I don't understand.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, it's a operation of pai gow, which is simply a Chinese crippled pinch dominoes and American poker and it's played astatine casinos. You get 2 hands, you get a group of 5 cards and a group of 2 cards, and you're fundamentally playing against nan trader and it's quote-unquote “poker.” So that's nan grade of nan gambling that I do.

Michael Calore: Oh, I'm already lost.

Lauren Goode: How astir you? Do you person a poker face?

Michael Calore: No, I person sportsbook face, which is maine conscionable staring astatine my telephone waiting for nan scores to travel in.

Lauren Goode: Is that a existent thing? I deliberation we conscionable coined that.

Michael Calore: I deliberation so.

Lauren Goode: So if I'm not mistaken, you're asking this because our impermanent coming decidedly has immoderate caller acquisition playing poker.

Michael Calore: Yeah.

Lauren Goode: Andy Greenberg, invited to Uncanny Valley. We're truthful thrilled to person you connected nan show. How are you doing?

Andy Greenberg: Glad to beryllium present again. Good to talk to you both.

Michael Calore: All right, Andy, get your chips ready, because we're astir to double down connected poker cheating.

Andy Greenberg: OK, present we go. With arsenic galore poker puns arsenic imaginable successful this episode.

Michael Calore: This is why WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a show astir nan people, powerfulness and power of Silicon Valley. Today we are hacking our measurement done a poker game. Recently our workfellow Andy Greenberg and nan unit astatine WIRED's Hacklab experimented pinch really nan paper shuffler instrumentality DeckMate 2, 1 of nan astir communal machines utilized successful casinos, paper houses, and backstage games could beryllium altered to cheat successful a poker game. Then past week nan US Justice Department published an indictment against 31 people, among them NBA stars and members of nan mafia for allegedly moving a web of rigged gambling games. One of their rigging methods and nan 1 described successful item successful nan indictment was a manipulation of nan DeckMate 2 shuffling instrumentality successful almost precisely nan aforesaid measurement that Andy and nan Hacklab folks astatine WIRED antecedently showed. We'll dive into why their hackability matters for everyone involved, moreover for those of america who don't predominant nan poker table. I'm Michael Calore, head of user tech and culture.

Lauren Goode: I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a elder correspondent.

Andy Greenberg: And I'm Andy Greenberg, elder writer covering hacking, cybersecurity, surveillance, and apparently cheating astatine poker.

Michael Calore: So Andy, let's commencement pinch what made you want to pursuit nan story? Why did you and nan squad present astatine WIRED get willing successful seeing if you could rig nan DeckMate 2 shuffling machine?

Andy Greenberg: Well, this communicative really goes backmost 3 years benignant of successful its origin. So this group of information researchers who I talk to beautiful often astatine a institution called IOActive, they really sewage this thought from watching this benignant of streams televised crippled of poker astatine Los Angeles's Hustler Live Casino. There is this notorious crippled that each poker subordinate successful America, it seems like, is now acquainted with, wherever this inexperienced subordinate who was being staked by a pro—like fixed tons of money to bet with—called nan bluff of this different seasoned subordinate connected a major, awesome pot. And she called that bluff pinch a unspeakable manus for illustration a Jack and a 4 basically. And there's nary measurement each poker subordinate knows that you would ever cognize that you could telephone a bluff pinch a manus that bad unless you someway knew that nan different player's manus was moreover worse.

It would make nary consciousness unless you were cheating. Poker players show maine astatine least, of course, nan subordinate who called that bluff, she denies cheating. But this was a immense scandal, and location was a large investigation into nan game. There was really a benignant of charismatic study written astir nan incidents successful which Hustler Live Casino had to effort to get to nan bottommost of what happened. And successful that study they looked astatine each nan different possibilities of nan ways that nan caller subordinate mightiness person cheated, including hacking nan automated shuffler instrumentality called nan DeckMate that was utilized successful that crippled and really utilized successful casinos and backstage games and gambling establishments each astir nan world, this instrumentality that automatically shuffles cards. And successful that investigative study it stated, “Well, we tin norm retired nan automated shuffler because this point is fundamentally unhackable, it cannot beryllium compromised.”

That's what it said successful nan report. So coming backmost to my sources, these researchers astatine IOActive, nan information firm, they publication that, and to immoderate hacker, honestly, a explanation for illustration that is conscionable an invitation to beryllium personification wrong. If you perceive that thing is unhackable, past you cannot help—apparently if you are a hacker—but effort to find its vulnerabilities, which they did. And truthful by 2023, they had recovered a full postulation of vulnerabilities successful nan DeckMate 2 that they were astir to coming astatine nan Black Hat hacker convention successful Las Vegas. And they told maine astir it. By nan summertime of 2023, they had successful truth travel up pinch this method wherever they could insert a small instrumentality that they had developed into nan USB larboard that sits exposed connected nan backmost of a DeckMate 2 shuffler, often by player's knees nether nan table, nan instrumentality benignant of sits flush pinch nan table.

The assemblage of it is beneath nan table, including this exposed USB port, and you tin instrumentality a small instrumentality into that larboard and past change nan codification of nan machine, get entree to—this is benignant of unbelievable—but nan DeckMate 2 has a camera wrong of it, put location by nan manufacturer. So their hacking instrumentality will summation entree to that camera and study nan full platform bid arsenic it's being shuffled and past transmit that platform bid to a cheating subordinate truthful that they would cognize what is successful everybody's manus successful a crippled of Texas Hold‘em and beryllium capable to stake aliases fold and fundamentally cheat perfectly and undetectably.

Michael Calore: So why does nan institution put a camera wrong nan automated shuffling machine?

Andy Greenberg: Well, ironically, that camera is wrong nan instrumentality to forestall cheating, to guarantee that nan integrity of nan platform basically. It looks to spot that each 52 cards are there, that cipher has slipped successful an other ace aliases something. But yes, it is wholly nuts. It feels to maine that location is simply a camera wrong this point wherever if you're capable to hack, and location were successful truth vulnerabilities successful nan firmware arsenic well, that allowed nan information researchers astatine IOActive to change nan codification of nan instrumentality undetectably. And that intends that you tin get entree to that camera and study nan platform order. It did not look for illustration a bully thought to person a camera wrong of this point waiting to beryllium accessed by hackers.

Michael Calore: So you hooked up pinch these researchers precocious successful Las Vegas. DEFCON is nan large hacker convention that takes spot successful Las Vegas each twelvemonth and you're like, “OK, we're successful Las Vegas. I cognize that these guys person this hacked machine, I want to spot if it works.” So show america astir your experiment.

Andy Greenberg: Right. So successful 2023, we astatine WIRED collapsed nan communicative of nan vulnerabilities successful this instrumentality acknowledgment to IOActive telling maine astir them. And past now successful 2025, 2 years later, we connected nan video squad for our Hacklab bid were conscionable thinking, "What is simply a nosy hacking objection we tin show connected camera?" And truthful I had this thought of what astir that automated paper shuffler that sewage hacked 2 years ago? Maybe we could, if that vulnerability still exists successful these machines, we could show that.

And that's for illustration this really cool Hollywood hack to show connected video. And truthful we sewage Joseph Tartaro, nan lead interrogator from IOActive to subordinate america and not only show really to hack a DeckMate 2 paper shuffler, but we had him and 2 unsuspecting players beryllium successful connected a existent crippled of Texas Hold'em successful which he hacked nan shuffler and acted arsenic my cheating partner.

And we really tried retired this utilization successful a existent crippled wherever I cheated against group who had nary thought that nan shuffler had been hacked. When I yet met Joseph successful personification successful Vegas, I did want to spot really nan DeckMate 2 useful firsthand. He was capable to unfastened up nan instrumentality and show maine really it operates.

Andy Greenberg (clip): How does nan DeckMate 2 activity internally? Is it really nan aforesaid measurement that I would return a platform and riffle, shuffle it for illustration this? Is it doing that mechanically inside?

Joseph Tartaro (clip): No, really it has 20, 23 aliases 26 different shelves and it will make a random number. So it'll yet conscionable nutrient a deck. It's really utilized to make judge that nan casino conscionable gets much hands an hour. Let maine show you. See nan doorway opened here. And now we wait.

Andy Greenberg (clip): And nan trader conscionable pulls nan platform retired of this small instrumentality astatine nan top.

Joseph Tartaro (clip): Correct. There's your deck.

Andy Greenberg (clip): Yeah, present we go.

Lauren Goode: So if nan constituent of nan hacking method is to study nan cleanable bid of nan deck, past what happens erstwhile nan trader starts cutting nan deck?

Andy Greenberg: That is simply a really bully question. It seems for illustration if you conscionable trim nan platform erstwhile it came retired of nan shuffler earlier everybody's hands are dealt, past that would lick this problem of nan cheater knowing nan order. But successful a crippled of Texas Hold'em, erstwhile you spot what's successful your manus aliases you spot nan 3 flop cards, nan first cards that are put retired publically onto nan table, you'll cognize precisely wherever nan trader has trim to aliases wherever a subordinate has trim to earlier nan hands are dealt. And truthful pinch nan app that IOActive built, this civilization cheating app that receives nan bid of nan deck, you tin really softly put into nan app nan cards successful your hands aliases nan flop cards connected nan table, and arsenic soon arsenic you do that, it will show you what's successful everybody else's hand. That solves nan problem of personification cutting nan deck.

Michael Calore: So thing that's still sticking successful my mind is that successful bid to discuss nan machine, you person to plug this custom-made instrumentality that IOActive developed into nan USB larboard of nan DeckMate 2. So really do you do that? How do they really get entree to nan instrumentality if they're successful a business wherever they're astatine a casino aliases they're astatine a backstage crippled and they want to cheat?

Andy Greenberg: Right. So nan measurement that Joseph, nan information interrogator describes this is that larboard is often sitting nether nan array by your knees successful a casino. So if you're bold capable to dress you dropped your chips aliases a sandwich aliases whatever, you tin conscionable duck nether nan table, plug successful this instrumentality and commencement cheating. The institution that sells this shuffling instrumentality from nan very opening said that that's not a realistic scenario. Things are monitored excessively intimately successful a casino. That's not really possible. I really don't know. And of people we didn't trial that retired successful our demo successful a existent casino. It seems for illustration it could beryllium possible. Joseph points retired that group moreover sometimes complaint their phones successful that larboard because it provides powerfulness too.

So you could usage a malicious Android phone, for illustration an Android telephone group up to transportation retired nan aforesaid utilization alternatively of his small hacking instrumentality plugged into nan shuffler. But besides there's this full different threat model. Once you've seen that by hacking nan shuffler done nan USB port, you tin cheat successful this incredibly effective way. That besides intends that a attraction personification who has entree to nan instrumentality earlier nan crippled aliases nan big of nan crippled themselves, if nan casino is successful connected it, if nan big of this backstage game, if it's their shuffler, they tin hack their ain instrumentality and let personification to cheat and you would ne'er know.

Lauren Goode: So Andy, really do nan cheaters who are astatine nan array really participate successful this? How do you spot what's going connected if you're not a personification who's sitting location staring astatine your telephone surface that has entree to each of that integer information?

Andy Greenberg: Well, I deliberation nan constituent you're raising possibly is that you're not expected to beryllium messing pinch your telephone successful nan mediate of a high-stakes poker game.

Lauren Goode: Right. Exactly.

Andy Greenberg: If you're successful nan game, you're not allowed to usage your telephone successful immoderate casinos, successful definite backstage games if capable money is connected nan line. So nan strategy that Joseph and I group up successful our hacking demo that we benignant of conscionable figured retired connected nan alert done a spot of experimentation was that he, being my cheating partner, would fold and get retired of nan crippled connected nan hands wherever we would cheat. And past erstwhile he was retired of nan game, he was capable to prime up his telephone and cipher would deliberation doubly astir that. So he would look astatine his hand, he would fold, past he would prime up his telephone and softly put into nan app connected his phone, nan 2 cards successful his hand, and past he would cognize who had nan champion hand.

In fact, he would cognize everybody's hands, and past he would silently awesome to maine really to stake aliases to fold. And nan measurement we really did that was done a benignant of strategy of covert signaling that utilized nan number of chips he was holding successful his hand. I'm an perfectly unspeakable poker player, I person nary thought what I'm doing, but I would conscionable watch Joseph's signals connected these hands wherever he had folded and was retired of nan crippled and was alternatively my cheating partner to spot really galore chips he was messing pinch successful his hand. And done those chips alone, he would springiness maine nan awesome of what to do and he would cognize erstwhile I had nan champion hand, and he would show maine to stake large and I would triumph these monolithic pots.

Lauren Goode: What was he doing pinch his hands? What did he do pinch nan chips?

Andy Greenberg: Our strategy was conscionable for illustration play pinch 1 spot intends fold, play pinch 2 intends call, play pinch 3 intends raise. And truthful I would conscionable do arsenic I was told, and erstwhile I had nan winning manus and I saw him messing pinch those 3 chips, I would sometimes spell each successful and return these unsuspecting players for tremendous sums of money.

Lauren Goode: This is simply a Bond movie? This really is simply a Bond movie.

Andy Greenberg: Yes.

Lauren Goode: Andy, you are WIRED's James Bond.

Andy Greenberg: Well, it's funny you should opportunity that because we experimented pinch different ways of cheating excessively and different ways of hacking nan shuffler. You tin not only study nan nonstop bid of nan deck, but you tin really reorder nan platform by hacking it too. And Joseph tried that, and he demonstrated to maine that he could successful truth replicate nan nonstop manus from Casino Royale aliases Bond arsenic a consecutive flush. And we played retired that manus too. He tin pinch codification unsocial woody you precisely nan manus he wants you to have. But that conscionable seemed for illustration a benignant of really clumsy measurement of cheating wherever it would commencement to go evident if you had these crazy astonishing James Bond hands excessively often. So alternatively we conscionable stuck pinch this overmuch much subtle method of learning nan platform bid alternatively than messing pinch nan platform order.

Michael Calore: Let's return a speedy break. When we travel back, we're going to find retired really this cheating strategy worked retired for Andy, and why nan FBI, nan Mafia, and nan NBA are each progressive pinch nan DeckMate 2 machine.

[break]

Michael Calore: Welcome backmost to Uncanny Valley. Today we're talking astir hacking poker games. So Andy, you're sitting successful a room successful Las Vegas astatine a poker game. You're not playing pinch existent money, but everybody astatine nan array has chips and everybody wants to win. You are sitting adjacent to your co-conspirator from IOActive, and past location are 2 unsuspecting players astatine nan array pinch you. Joseph is watching nan cards connected his app. He knows who astatine nan array has nan champion manus and he's signaling to you to fold, to call, aliases to raise by playing pinch a definite number of chips successful his hand. Did you cleanable them out? Did this work?

Andy Greenberg: Well, I americium really specified a bad poker subordinate that I was still losing for nan first hr of nan game, which was benignant of amazing. I thought this was going to beryllium nan astir humiliating evening of my life that I went each nan measurement to Vegas, group up this incredibly elaborate research to cheat, and still lost. That really almost happened. But that was conscionable really bad luck. We were not really hacking nan shuffler to springiness maine bully hands. We were conscionable hacking nan shuffler to cognize erstwhile I had nan champion hand.

And truthful it took maine much than an hr to commencement getting bully hands. And past erstwhile I did, I would cognize precisely erstwhile I had nan champion manus acknowledgment to Joseph's signals. And yes, we did yet conscionable cleanable retired these 2 players. If it had been existent money, it would've been a very lucrative scheme. And yet I felt beautiful bad astir having done this to them connected camera. And by nan extremity of nan nighttime I did confess to them.

Andy Greenberg (clip): I person to confess, some of you are acold amended poker players than I am, and I was cheating this full game. I conjecture nan mobility is, tin you show really I was cheating?

Speaker 1 (clip): I did not show thing was up.

Speaker 2 (clip): Maybe you looked astatine your telephone a mates times. I don't know.

Andy Greenberg (clip): Actually it was Joseph who was looking astatine his phone. It was nan shuffler. The shuffler was hacked. It transmitted via Bluetooth nan nonstop bid of nan platform to Joseph's phone. He was past signaling to maine whether I should stake aliases fold because, honestly, I'm a unspeakable poker player. I person nary thought what I'm doing.

Michael Calore: So that research was tally complete nan summer. And I want to move gears now to nan news from nan government's indictment past week, because nan indictment archive alleges that members of respective organized crime families and immoderate well-known figures from nan NBA, including Portland Trail Blazers coach Chauncey Billups and a erstwhile subordinate and adjunct coach named Damon Jones, were each portion of a web of rigged gambling games. Miami Heat defender Terry Rozier was charged successful a abstracted alleged gambling strategy arsenic well. But for nan main scheme, nan rigged paper games, it seems that 1 of nan methods utilized was very akin to nan 1 that you and Joseph utilized successful your experiment. I person to cognize really you reacted to nan news erstwhile you saw that nan DeckMate 2 was really named successful nan indictment.

Andy Greenberg: I mean, I could not judge it. I'd seen nan headlines that greeting of these NBA figures who had been arrested successful this scheme, and past I conscionable exchanged rings pinch different work. I had nary consciousness astatine each that this was immoderate benignant of hacking operation. It took maine hours to commencement reference different people's reports and past yet nan indictment. And I conscionable could not judge it, that they had really done almost precisely what we had done. We published our video connected October 10th, and past conscionable 2 weeks later, this alleged Mafia-run gambling strategy had really done almost precisely nan aforesaid point that we had conscionable revealed. I mean, it was a bizarre coincidence.

Lauren Goode: After you did publication nan indictment, what did you study astir really akin this cognition was to nan 1 that you experienced? Were location different hacking mechanisms used?

Andy Greenberg: Well, it was really benignant of singular really adjacent it was to nan strategy that Joseph and I had developed, almost conscionable by chance it felt like. I mean, we were conscionable making it up connected nan alert practically. They didn't usage a USB instrumentality to hack their shuffler connected nan spot. These were backstage games wherever nan big of nan crippled had group up a rigged game. So it was their shuffler, they had hacked it up of time, but they had done almost precisely nan aforesaid point of not reordering nan platform but alternatively learning nan platform bid and transmitting it. In fact, they transmitted it complete nan net to immoderate distant usability successful a different state, according to nan Justice Department, who would past nonstop nan platform bid backmost to 1 of nan players successful nan game.

Just for illustration Joseph being my cheating partner, they had these players successful nan crippled who they called nan backmost aliases nan driver, nan benignant of concealed cheating mastermind successful nan crippled who I deliberation likewise was location truthful that they could look astatine their cards and past fold, past prime up their telephone and it wouldn't beryllium suspicious. And past commencement erstwhile they learned nan platform bid from their telephone signaling to everybody other successful nan game, they were utilizing precisely nan aforesaid covert signaling strategy that Joseph and I had developed, but they were really utilizing it to bargain hundreds of thousands, yet millions of dollars from these victims.

Michael Calore: That's wild. So successful nan years that you've been reporting astir nan DeckMate 2, you've reached retired to nan institution that makes it respective times and they've told you connected different occasions that they've addressed nan information concerns. Maybe they abnormal nan USB larboard aliases made different changes to nan hardware, nan software, and nan information experts that you've spoken to I'm judge person thoughts astir these changes that they've made. Are they enough?

Andy Greenberg: Well, it's absorbing because successful 2023 erstwhile I wrote astir nan DeckMate 2 for nan first time, backmost past Light & Wonder, nan genitor institution of Shuffle Master, which sells nan DeckMate 2, told maine that this conscionable wasn't realistic. That it really didn't matter, that this could ne'er beryllium pulled disconnected successful a casino. Kind of not really moreover reasoning astir nan truth that you could usage a rigged shuffler successful a backstage crippled aliases successful an unlicensed paper location aliases someplace for illustration that. But past we did scope retired again to Light & Wonder up of our video objection conscionable this past summer. That's erstwhile I learned that Light & Wonder had successful truth pushed retired information updates to its shufflers successful casinos successful Las Vegas, successful Atlantic City each astir nan world if you person a statement pinch them.

They moreover made those information updates disposable to group who person secondhand unlicensed shufflers. And that information update whitethorn successful truth spot nan vulnerabilities that we were hacking successful our demonstration. But nan problem it doesn't lick is erstwhile group are hacking their ain DeckMate 2 and they're not going to put successful nan information update earlier they rig their ain machine. So there's this benignant of insider problem that is not fixed by immoderate update to nan firmware. The problem there, it really is that Light & Wonder has conscionable been manufacturing and trading a instrumentality for years that has a camera inside. That was astir apt a bad idea.

Lauren Goode: So I'm funny what nan large takeaway is here. For group who don't play poker, spell to nan casino each that regularly isolated from for maine and Mike making our regular visit to CES. Why should group attraction astir this communicative speech from nan truth that it is simply a twisted tale?

Andy Greenberg: To me, I conjecture it's conscionable benignant of a parable astir modern technology. The much that we digitize elemental devices and processes, thing arsenic elemental arsenic shuffling a platform of cards. When you make that a integer device, erstwhile you make it a smart tool, past you've introduced nan consequence that it tin beryllium hacked. And that's existent not conscionable of automated shufflers and casinos wherever a batch of money's connected nan line, but besides of aesculapian devices successful hospitals and smart devices successful our homes, including information systems, including things that we dangle connected successful our regular lives. The much that we adhd integer tooling into nan benignant of infrastructure of our lives, nan much susceptible it becomes to being messed with, meddled with, sabotaged, surveilled, that is nan modern world that we unrecorded in. And sometimes it would beryllium amended if we conscionable stuck pinch a spot much of an analog approach.

Lauren Goode: As I for illustration to say, "Shut it each down."

Andy Greenberg: That's what we opportunity present astatine WIRED, "Do not usage technology."

Lauren Goode: If you spell to nan casino, make judge it's a really dumb casino. And by that I mean not digitally connected.

Michael Calore: And besides to makers of smart location devices, extremity putting cameras successful things, please. We don't request much cameras successful our homes.

Andy Greenberg: I mean there's besides conscionable a overmuch much circumstantial instruction here. One that I heard from poker, from gambling experts erstwhile I was moving connected this story, which is that if you spell to a backstage poker game, particularly 1 pinch a batch of money connected nan statement and you spot an automated shuffler, get retired of there. Just do not play, leave.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, don't beryllium taken for a mark.

Michael Calore: Word to nan wise. OK, we request to return different break and past we'll travel correct back.

Lauren and Andy, convey you some for a awesome speech today. Hopefully nary 1 takes our chat arsenic inspiration for going and hacking a poker game. And if that happens, we are not liable. We conscionable want to make that clear. So now let's spell into nan last conception of nan show. It's called WIRED and TIRED. This is an opportunity for america to show group what we deliberation is WIRED and what we deliberation is tired. Lauren, would you for illustration to spell first?

Lauren Goode: Sure. Mine are not tech related astatine all. I'm sorry to say.

Michael Calore: Love it.

Lauren Goode: Our producers were like, "Make it techy." And I'm like, "I person a nutrient recommendation." So my WIRED is Brazilian Coconut Sweet Bread.

Michael Calore: What?

Lauren Goode: It's precisely what it sounds like.

Michael Calore: Brazilian Coconut—

Lauren Goode: Sweet bread.

Michael Calore: Sweet Bread.

Lauren Goode: It's delicious. And there's a cafe, Mike, that I'll return you to that has it, it's delicious. That's it. If you tin find it anyplace successful your vicinity aliases city, I highly urge trying it.

Michael Calore: It's for illustration if there's a Brazilian cafe aliases a Brazilian—

Lauren Goode: Or conscionable look up nan look if you for illustration to bake.

Michael Calore: OK.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, it's amazing. That's all. My TIRED, told you, my TIRED is really evident merchandise placement. It's out.

Michael Calore: Was location a caller tv show aliases movie aliases portion of contented that you watched recently?

Lauren Goode: Yes. And I deliberation you cognize precisely which 1 I'm talking about, right?

Michael Calore: No.

Lauren Goode: Have you watched Nobody Wants This Season 2?

Michael Calore: No.

Lauren Goode: The merchandise placement is truthful evident successful this show and I'm really enjoying nan series, but it's sponsored by Airbnb and halfway done 1 of nan episodes they're like, let's do an Airbnb acquisition making pasta.

Michael Calore: Oh, boy.

Lauren Goode: And it's like, "Oh no." And past there's this different really evident portion wherever Kristen Bell, astatine slightest doubly uses this L'Oréal tegument serum and nan camera benignant of zooms successful adjacent connected it earlier she uses nan tegument serum. And it's really to L'Oréal aliases Estée Lauder, it mightiness beryllium Estée Lauder. See, you cognize what? I don't care. I'm conscionable going to bungle it because I don't want to springiness them an other merchandise placement but it's for illustration 1 of those skincare conglomerates. And I'm watching and I find it distracting and I cognize their merchandise placement is conscionable a portion of films, TV shows, everything, but do it discreetly, do it better.

Michael Calore: Yeah. My favourite indiscreet merchandise placement was successful nan show Entourage from HBO. It was connected TV, I don't know, 15 years ago.

Lauren Goode: Oh, I retrieve it.

Michael Calore: And nan characters utilized to opportunity to each other, "I'll BBM it to you."

Lauren Goode: No. Time capsule.

Michael Calore: Yeah. Which is like, moreover if you had a Blackberry—

Lauren Goode: Yeah, you ne'er said that.

Michael Calore: Nobody ever said that.

Lauren Goode: No, it's truthful true.

Michael Calore: They would matter it to you.

Lauren Goode: Incredible.

Michael Calore: But no, I'm going to BBM it to you.

Andy Greenberg: Just nan truth that we moreover cognize what BBM-ing is conscionable benignant of intends it worked.

Lauren Goode: Or possibly it's more, "What is that, guys? I don't retrieve that. I'm excessively young." All right, Andy, springiness america your WIRED, TIRED.

Andy Greenberg: Well, I americium not a video crippled reporter, but I did bargain the—everybody has been talking astir this crippled Silksong. It was $20 connected nan Switch. I bought it for my 9-year-old son, and I thought that I would play this tiny small crippled and I conscionable cannot judge really fricking difficult it is. Nobody is talking astir nan truth that this incredibly celebrated game—it makes you want to cry. Like me, not my son, for illustration me, nan adult. I cannot extremity playing it.

But I person been much disappointment playing this crippled than I person been possibly successful thing other successful my life aliases activity for years. This is my highly amateur video crippled inclination watching study that for a while each these games sewage really easy for illustration Candy Crush and Farmville and Angry Bird worldly wherever you conscionable fundamentally can't lose. And group look to emotion that and games sewage incredibly easy. And now it feels for illustration we're successful this era wherever games are conscionable absurdly hard, including these—what look for illustration casual games for kids are successful truth immoderate of nan astir challenging things you will do successful your life. And really I deliberation it's great. So yeah, I would opportunity TIRED are easy games and WIRED is games that are ridiculously difficult and making maine want to cry.

Michael Calore: Nice.

Lauren Goode: So you're saying it's easier to hack a poker crippled than it is to play immoderate of these games?

Andy Greenberg: I will opportunity that I did almost outcry connected nan time erstwhile we were cheating successful nan poker crippled arsenic good because I thought I mightiness suffer and that nan full video squad was going to execution me.

Lauren Goode: All right, Mike, what's yours?

Michael Calore: So my TIRED is eBooks, and I americium not saying that eBooks are passe aliases anything, I still emotion eBooks, but lately I've been putting nan Kindle down and picking up existent insubstantial books conscionable because nan titles that I want are really difficult for maine to get connected eBooks. So I get eBooks mostly from nan room present successful San Francisco done nan Libby app. And if you person a Kindle and you person a Libby app, you cognize really that goes. Sometimes you person to hold 3 aliases 4 months to get a bully book that you like. And it's gotten to nan constituent now wherever if I want to get nan ebook and I'm waiting for it, I locomotion into a bookstore and there's already a utilized transcript of that book available. So I conscionable bargain nan utilized transcript of nan book and past I publication nan insubstantial book.

So I've been doing that a batch complete nan past year. My bookshelf has swollen and truthful person nan shelves adjacent to my bed, but that conscionable feels for illustration a displacement successful my life that eBooks, who needs them anymore? I deliberation my Kindle astir apt hasn't had a complaint successful nan artillery for months astatine this point. However, nan point that I person been getting very, very into, my WIRED is audio books connected Spotify because I person a Spotify premium subscription—it’s nan 1 that's for illustration $12 a month—and it comes pinch 15 hours of audiobook listening each month, each 31 almanac days. That's for illustration an audiobook each period aliases possibly 2 if you perceive to nan shorter ones. And they person them correct erstwhile they travel retired and they don't person everything. Spotify still sells audio books. So if you want to perceive to a marque caller book, it whitethorn beryllium available, but you whitethorn person to salary a small spot of money to get it.

But still, if you don't person crazy mainstream tastes, location is simply a very bully chance that nan audiobook that conscionable came retired is disposable to you arsenic a Spotify paid subscriber. So I would opportunity research nan audio book options connected Spotify if you for illustration audio books and if you're for illustration maine and you usage Libby for audio books and you don't want to person to hold 2 months to get nan audio type of your book, you tin conscionable spell to Spotify and perceive to it correct away. So that's my WIRED. My WIRED is for illustration spell difficult connected nan point that you're paying for and not utilizing and TIRED is conscionable publication nan analog book.

Andy Greenberg: When this started connected Spotify, really erstwhile I learned that each of my books that I've written were disposable connected Spotify, I really checked pinch my supplier excessively astir what nan woody is. Everybody says that Spotify notoriously underpays philharmonic artists, right? But it turns retired that if you perceive to 10 minutes of 1 of my books connected Spotify, that counts arsenic a afloat audiobook sale. Wow. I get paid nan aforesaid royalties arsenic you would if you had downloaded it from Audible aliases something. So you tin do this, I conjecture is what I'm saying. At slightest that's nan woody pinch Penguin Random House who publishes my books.

Lauren Goode: That's bully to know.

Michael Calore: So if you person 15 hours, that intends you tin salary royalties retired to what 70 authors each period if you wanted to conscionable by listening to nan first 10 minutes of a bunch of different audiobooks.

Andy Greenberg: I would really urge that you perceive to nan first 10 minutes of my books 70 times.

Lauren Goode: From different accounts.

Michael Calore: All right, good that brings america to nan end. So convey you Andy for being here. Pleasure talking to you some arsenic always.

Lauren Goode: Thanks, Andy, for taking america heavy wrong your acheronian world of hackers.

Andy Greenberg: Anytime.

Michael Calore: Thank you for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you'd for illustration what you heard today, make judge to travel our show and complaint it connected your podcast app of choice. If you'd for illustration to get successful touch pinch america pinch immoderate questions, comments, aliases show suggestions, constitute to america astatine uncannyvalley@wired.com. Today's show is produced by Adriana Tapia and Marc Leyda. Amar Lal astatine Macro Sound mixed nan episode. Marc Leyda is our San Francisco workplace engineer. Pran Bandi is our New York Studio engineer. Daniel Roman fact-checked this episode. Kate Osborn is our executive producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED’s world editorial director, Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's, caput of Global Audio.