Is Silicon Valley Still the Tech Capital?

Earlier this month, we took nan show to San Francisco for a live recording successful beforehand of a awesome assemblage astatine KQED's The Commons. WIRED's Lauren Goode, Katie Drummond, and Jason Kehe asked themselves and answered a perennial question: Is Silicon Valley still nan tech superior of nan world? Plus, they put themselves to nan trial pinch a caller crippled and immoderate questions from nan audience.

You tin travel Lauren Goode connected Bluesky astatine @laurengoode, Katie Drummond connected Bluesky astatine @katie-drummond, and Michael Calore connected Bluesky astatine @snackfight. Write to america astatine uncannyvalley@wired.com.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Michael Calore: Hey, this is Mike. This week, we wanted to stock pinch you nan unrecorded show that we hosted successful business pinch KQED earlier this month. Our world editorial director, Katie Drummond, had a really nosy and crisp conversation pinch Jack Conte, nan CEO of Patreon, astir what it takes to make authentic activity successful nan era of AI and influencers. Then my cohosts, WIRED's Lauren Goode and Jason Kehe, joined nan shape for a typical roundtable discussion. I sadly couldn't make it, but I consciousness very thankful for everyone who came done that night. So here's nan show. I dream you bask it.

Lauren Goode: I conscionable want to opportunity earlier we officially get started, Michael Colore, who a batch of you cognize and love, our beloved “Snackfight,” could not beryllium present coming because he is weathering Covid. He said we tin stock that, but we are truthful gladsome to person Jason present successful his stead. Actually, really do we opportunity that? You're our editor, please.

Jason Kehe: Man, gosh. I suppose you could opportunity that successful Mike's stead—

Lauren Goode: In my stead.

Jason Kehe: ... I rode successful to prevention nan time connected my noble steed.

Lauren Goode: Thank you truthful much.

Katie Drummond: I forced Jason to travel do it tonight.

Jason Kehe: She did. Bully was nan connection I was using.

Katie Drummond: He's a awesome speaker. It's going to beryllium great.

Lauren Goode: We're truthful thrilled, and he's going to person plentifulness of spicy takes. So without immoderate further ado, invited again everyone to our first unrecorded version of nan Uncanny Valley Roundtable present successful San Francisco pinch our partners, KQED. Each week connected this podcast, we return a adjacent look astatine nan group and powerfulness of Silicon Valley and its power connected our regular lives. I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a elder analogous astatine WIRED.

Jason Kehe: I'm Jason Kehe. I'm a features editor astatine WIRED.

Katie Drummond: And I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's world editorial director.

Lauren Goode: And that is our cat.

Katie Drummond: Yes.

Jason Kehe: Whose feline is that?

Katie Drummond: Thank you WIRED creator.

Lauren Goode: It is very tiny though, and not AI-generated. Tonight, we are going to trace immoderate of nan history of Silicon Valley and zoom into nan future, and yes, we will beryllium talking astir AI. Along nan way, we're going to trace WIRED's ain history since WIRED first launched astatine nan commencement of that full user net point I deliberation we've heard of, and we're going to talk astir really we've arrived astatine a constituent wherever it's astir intolerable to disentangle tech sum from politics, wellness care, education, proscription and more. And lastly, we're going to talk astir a mobility that's beautiful adjacent and beloved to group successful this room, I think, which is, Is nan Bay Area still nan halfway of nan tech revolution? So I'm guessing a batch of group successful this room already cognize a small spot astir nan history of Silicon Valley. Some group mightiness remember, it was consequence orchards backmost successful nan time and past nan spot companies took over. We've each heard nan tales of machine engineers tinkering successful their garages to build immoderate of nan world-changing products and platforms that we each usage today, but what you mightiness not cognize is that WIRED was besides a pioneer successful nan early days of individual computing. We first launched arsenic a quarterly mag successful 1993, and past our website launched successful 1994. That was Hotwired.com, which sounds a small spot Hot aliases Not, but it was not that. I deliberation we person a ocular present of what that really looked like, which is very cool.

Katie Drummond: Oh, no.

Lauren Goode: I know. We really person not seen this.

Katie Drummond: No, I person not seen this.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, that is ... But that's it. That benignant of looks for illustration immoderate benignant of cult, doesn't it?

Katie Drummond: Yeah, and it benignant of was. I deliberation it benignant of was.

Lauren Goode: Yes. It was, right? What is Coin? Was that for illustration Bitcoin? Was it—

Katie Drummond: Signal?

Lauren Goode: Signal? Yeah. Very cool, very cool. The original manifesto for WIRED mag said that nan world needed … I emotion this. The world needed WIRED mag because nan mainstream media, nan lame-stream media was still, quote, “groping for nan snooze button.” The machine property was excessively engaged fundamentally churning retired its latest loop of advertisement income and was not yet covering nan societal changes truthful profound that their only parallel is astir apt nan find of fire. So erstwhile again, WIRED was very early. Over nan galore years, complete nan past 30 years, Silicon Valley has gone done galore ups and downs, its cycles, and a batch of group person wondered if nan Valley is dead, if it's mislaid its soul, if group are fleeing Silicon Valley for different markets. Of course, WIRED besides made its ain assertions that definite aspects of nan manufacture were dead, and we weren't ever right, truthful I'm funny to perceive some of your thoughts. But Jason, I'm going to commencement pinch you because you've been astatine WIRED really nan longest of us. As you've covered nan tech gyration complete nan past twelve years aliases more, what communicative arc do you spot arsenic astir significant?

Jason Kehe: It's difficult for maine to look backmost arsenic a WIRED editor. I don't dwell connected nan past, but I do want to return to nan manifesto because I do emotion it, and I deliberation it's important to commencement by saying you person to retrieve that earlier WIRED started, tech was complete there, civilization was complete here, and cipher had nan thought that these 2 things could beryllium meaningfully connected until WIRED. WIRED's founding penetration was that exertion is culture, that nan 2 co-create each other, that they're bound up successful each other, and that penetration remains truthful profound. And I deliberation we're going to get to Katie's founding penetration erstwhile she took complete nan publication, which is that exertion is authorities arsenic well. But I deliberation nan communicative of WIRED, if I tin speak very broadly, is recognizing what exertion is. So it was successful nan ’90s, successful nan 2000s culture, it's still evidently very overmuch culture, but now it has this caller component. So I conjecture I tin talk astir my circumstantial 13 years, but I'm much excited astir nan entirety of WIRED's beingness and tracing that arc, if that makes overmuch sense.

Katie Drummond: That makes sense.

Jason Kehe: Yes.

Katie Drummond: You tin do that. What do I … Wait, what was nan question, Lauren?

Lauren Goode: What communicative arc astir Silicon Valley and computing has stood retired to you nan astir successful your clip covering … Because of course, anterior to WIRED, you were astatine Vice and galore different publications covering this area.

Katie Drummond: The 1 point that's absorbing to maine astir that manifesto from nan early ’90s is really dismissive nan founding editors of WIRED were of nan tech press, because if I tin beryllium very candid, successful my appraisal of exertion publicity and of WIRED during many, galore years that I was a scholar and moving arsenic a journalist astatine different publications, is that nan tech property broadly speaking, until I would say, what, for illustration 2015, 2016, was doing precisely what nan founding editors of WIRED criticized. They were conscionable fundamentally publishing property releases for exertion companies. They were not interrogating what Facebook, now Meta, was really doing pinch each of this data, nan implications of these platforms. They were not interrogating that. Dare I say, neither was WIRED for a somewhat lengthy play of time. This is conscionable my opinion. I deliberation that that each started to alteration astir 2015, 2016, wherever we saw Silicon Valley and nan tech manufacture spell from saints and heroes and idols for truthful galore group to very, very flawed characters, and not conscionable characters, but nan main characters. And truthful I deliberation we saw this enthusiasm and this credulous position of exertion successful Silicon Valley, and past we person since had won many, many, many, galore reckonings, a reckoning each time it feels like, to bring america to wherever we are now, which I deliberation that WIRED's domiciled successful this infinitesimal and nan measurement I spot our occupation is successful galore ways precisely what those founding editors defined it arsenic successful nan early ’90s. Our occupation is not to people property releases for your cool shit. Our occupation is to explicate to our assemblage really your cool crap affects each facet of their lives. Our occupation is to explicate to them each of nan money that that institution made from trading this cool, oh, they're spending a bunch of it lobbying politicians successful DC and that's what that really intends for nan remainder of your life. Our occupation is to necktie each of those things together, to bring each of those pieces together for nan audience. That is what WIRED is successful this moment, and I deliberation different founding editors of WIRED would person a different appraisal of my activity and of what WIRED is publishing. I've heard from a fewer of them. I don't reply nan emails, but nan reality is, they wrote it successful 1993. We are offering our mentation of that aforesaid DNA successful 2025. That is my view.

Jason Kehe: I person to adhd that astatine slightest 1 of them, Kevin Kelly, aft he met pinch Katie very early on, sent me—

Katie Drummond: We did nan WIRED walk. I can't talk astir it.

Jason Kehe: I did email him correct after, because I happened to cognize this was happening and say, “What did you deliberation of Katie?” And he wrote backmost very simply, “I deliberation she's nan correct leader for WIRED correct now.”

Katie Drummond: That's very nice.

Jason Kehe: It helped maine flooded immoderate of my own, if I whitethorn beryllium honest, trepidation, because I had years saying why it's not a news statement and we don't attraction astir politics. What does Katie opportunity connected virtually nan first time arsenic editor-in-chief? We're a news statement and I'm starting a authorities section, and I was like, “Gosh, Kevin.” And I thought Kevin would work together pinch me. He instantly said, “Katie is correct for nan moment.”

Katie Drummond: But interestingly, and we're going to talk astir nan San Francisco of it all, and I dream he doesn't mind maine sharing this. It's excessively late, I'm already talking astir it. When we met, nan first point he said to maine was, “So erstwhile are you moving here?” I unrecorded successful New York, I person a family. My life is successful New York, and I said, “Oh, I'm not.” And I took it arsenic a lighthearted question, and he was truthful upset.

Lauren Goode: Really?

Katie Drummond: He was not pleased.

Lauren Goode: How did he definitive that?

Katie Drummond: Repeatedly, very loudly for galore hours. He was like, “No, you person to beryllium here. This is wherever everything happens. This is still wherever it happens.” And it was my first week connected it, and I was like, "Ah." And I said, "This erstwhile editor lived successful New York." And he's like, "Yeah, and it was excessively businessy. It was not what WIRED is. You person to beryllium here," and he felt very powerfully astir that. And I conscionable deliberation that that is absorbing to maine successful nan discourse of what we're talking astir about nan thought of San Francisco arsenic nan halfway of nan tech universe, and my position astatine nan time, and this is only 2 years ago, it wasn't that agelong ago, was, "Actually, sorry, everyone." But actually, no, I don't deliberation that that is true. I deliberation that my position is that, and I americium American but I grew up successful Canada, that Americans thin to beryllium highly self-centered, highly self-congratulatory, conscionable obsessed pinch themselves and what's happening successful their ain country, and that San Francisco functions arsenic a microcosm of that successful nan discourse of tech wherever everyone successful San Francisco is like, "It's here, it's here." And I'm like, ever heard of China? We request to beryllium looking astatine different parts of nan world and interrogating those and covering. There's a full large wide world retired there, guys. This is not nan halfway of things anymore, and I really deliberation that that powerfully held position that I had erstwhile I started nan job, which is portion of why I was like, "No, I'm not moving there," was wrong,

Lauren Goode: Has already changed.

Katie Drummond: I person had to mean that position because it is undeniable, particularly successful nan discourse of AI, that it each points backmost here, for illustration this is wherever it's happening.

Jason Kehe: So are you moving to San Francisco?

Katie Drummond: No, I'm not.

Lauren Goode: So are you moving to San Francisco? No. Darn it.

Katie Drummond: I will not beryllium surviving here.

Lauren Goode: Well, location was a infinitesimal excessively I deliberation during nan pandemic erstwhile companies did commencement to... Well, first we should backmost up a small bit, which is successful nan 2010s and this era you're talking astir of glowing property and besides we were an era of SERP, and location were a batch of companies that were raising capital. Money was cheap, location were a batch of cool caller ideas, nan mobile gyration was happening, and I deliberation people, we were still knowing our narration to societal media, we weren't questioning it arsenic closely. There were taxation breaks that were very beneficial for tech companies to beryllium here, and truthful a batch of them were here, and past nan pandemic happened and group started to fly to different markets. I deliberation that was a small spot overstated, but location was immoderate astir whether aliases not Miami was going to beryllium nan adjacent tech hub, Austin, Texas was going to beryllium nan adjacent tech hub. And I deliberation post-pandemic, peculiarly erstwhile you look astatine immoderate of nan benignant of gaping holes successful commercialized existent property present successful San Francisco, location were immoderate mobility arsenic to whether aliases not San Francisco was going to get its mojo back. And now, what you're saying is clearly, moreover though you don't person needfully nan ground for comparison because you are a New Yorker, it has. This is wherever nan AI gyration is happening.

Katie Drummond: But past that is my mobility for you both, and I really deliberation it's adjuvant that I americium not successful nan San Francisco bubble. I deliberation it's patient for maine to beryllium looking astatine it from an outer constituent of view, but I retrieve each of nan stories and nan communicative of San Francisco is over. Housing is measurement excessively expensive. The issues astir unhoused communities, astir supplier use, astir quiet existent estate, this metropolis is done. It is cooked, and it's Austin and it's Miami, and everything is moving to these caller hubs. I retrieve being successful New York and seeing that sum and thinking, "Yeah, that each makes sense. Okay." But I deliberation that nan communicative is intelligibly a batch much complicated, and truthful I'm interested, for some of you arsenic group who person lived present for a agelong clip and seen nan ebbs and flows of it all, really that really has manifested. What person you seen successful nan past 5 years and do you consciousness for illustration correct now, you conscionable said it, but that this is nan spot wherever you request to be? To Kevin's point, 2 years ago, no, no. If you want to beryllium successful nan halfway of it all, you still request to beryllium successful San Francisco.

Lauren Goode: This goes backmost a small spot to what you were saying earlier astir really tech and civilization were chopped successful nan early days of nan computing revolution, and now I deliberation actually, civilization is downstream of tech. Tech ends up dictating a batch of this, and truthful during nan pandemic and instantly station pandemic, everyone wanted to show really they could do a distributed workforce, and now each of nan tech companies want to show really difficult ass they tin beryllium astir RTO. And besides tech companies were immoderate of nan first to nonstop group location successful nan early days of nan pandemic, truthful they lead culture. And I deliberation correct now, what tech companies are saying is nan AI gyration is happening. If you don't want to miss it, you person to beryllium present and you person to beryllium successful office. There's a tech banking convention going connected this week, nan Goldman Sachs Communacopia Conference, which is just, we won't talk astir nan name, but I was conscionable location yesterday and bankers telling maine that nan clients they're advising connected nan East Coast are moving retired present for AI. It's conscionable an anecdote, but I recovered that to beryllium very interesting.

Jason Kehe: I would conscionable adhd that I've ne'er meaningly felt San Francisco to beryllium immoderate different than it's ever been successful nan 13 years I've been here, and during nan tech conflict years aliases nan Doom Loop years, we ever travel up pinch these imaginative neologisms and coinages to constituent to our, I don't know, problems. At meal parties, we would each look astir and beryllium like, we don't spot it. We don't consciousness it. I mean, yes, location are problems. I've lived successful nan Tenderloin, but it's ever felt for illustration San Francisco to me. And erstwhile OpenAI did motorboat ChatGPT, I retrieve being very proud to opportunity nan ngo was nan opening of nan AI revolution. It started down nan street. San Francisco's still sewage it. I don't deliberation it had ever mislaid it. I deliberation it could only person happened here. I went to Miami and I retrieve reasoning it's excessively muggy to incubate tech talent. You request bully weather. You request to beryllium connected nan West Coast, you request to consciousness for illustration you're correct astatine nan separator of something. I really do judge that California does person an almost metaphysical power, and it's not Austin aliases Florida aliases moreover New York. It's present and I deliberation it will ever beryllium here, truthful yeah, for each these years, I thought those narratives were conscionable that, stories.

Lauren Goode: What did nan bartender conscionable show you? You were-

Jason Kehe: Oh yeah, we were astatine Bar Gemini crossed nan thoroughfare earlier this, and what did he say? AI has been awesome for business because nan OpenAI guys who are each very normal now. He said nan techies person go normies. They ever spell location aft work, truthful he loves nan AI revolution.

Lauren Goode: Yes. He said they portion a lot.

Jason Kehe: They portion a lot.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, it was fascinating.

Katie Drummond: It's very stressful trying to build an AI.

Lauren Goode: Yeah. And past I said, "Oh, isn't that hilarious? The OpenAI guys spell to a barroom named Gemini."

Jason Kehe: And past he said they named it aft them, because they've been location first.

Lauren Goode: Yes. Oh yeah, I emotion it. No, San Francisco does of people still person its problems, and nan costs of lodging is still excessively precocious and there's a full different speech that could beryllium had and KQED has a batch of them astir nan costs of housing, but it does consciousness for illustration correct now... I deliberation if we airs nan mobility astatine nan commencement of this podcast which is is nan Bay Area still nan halfway of nan tech revolution? I deliberation this is an unequivocal yes that we're saying. Katie, speaking of meal statement conversations, 1 point that I've been proceeding from folks retired here, erstwhile they're not talking astir their latest and top AI startups, is WIRED covers a batch of authorities these days. And truthful I was-

Katie Drummond: Do they opportunity it pinch discomfort?

Jason Kehe: Probably.

Lauren Goode: It depends. What's interesting, and I want to perceive from you truthful I won't spell disconnected connected excessively overmuch of a tangent, but what I perceive sometimes from task capitalists is they say, "Well, WIRED's a batch much captious than it utilized to be, aliases WIRED's changed a lot," which is ever ironic to maine because I deliberation they're virtually successful nan business of change. They show their companies to pivot each nan clip truthful they tin stay sustainable and relevant, and that's what we're doing, truthful alteration tin beryllium good. Also, they opportunity things like, "Well, I utilized to put based connected nan cool innovations that WIRED wrote about." And I said, "Well, that's awesome and you should still publication us, but we don't beryllium solely for your woody flow." And different group conscionable say, "It feels for illustration nan reside has changed and it did utilized to beryllium nan spot wherever I would spell for nan cool communicative astir nan caller innovative... The experiments happening successful a laboratory aliases nan AI model, and now it's a batch of politics." I would emotion to perceive your thoughts. We tin talk astir that intersection, but erstwhile you started astatine WIRED, you had this thought of, "I want to rotation up a authorities desk." It was 1 of nan first things that you did. What led you to that idea?

Katie Drummond: I didn't deliberation that difficult astir it because it felt very obvious, and I deliberation 1 of nan things that's important to retrieve is that I started successful September of 2023, truthful I was staring down nan truth that 2024 was going to beryllium an predetermination year, that Donald Trump was astir apt going to run, and that that would beryllium nan biggest communicative successful nan world if he did. Whether he won nan predetermination aliases not, if he ran, that that would beryllium nan communicative of 2024, and if you are not covering it successful immoderate way, you will beryllium wiped disconnected nan map. You will beryllium irrelevant. And nary offense, but WIRED was having a spot of a situation pinch being applicable astatine nan time. I'm conscionable being honest, portion of my occupation was like, I sewage to make this point go, and if we walk an full twelvemonth conscionable doing what we've been doing and we don't touch this point happening, this national predetermination successful nan United States, not to mention a grounds number of elections happening successful countries astir nan world, we are cooked because we will beryllium wholly irrelevant. Not to mention nan truth that erstwhile you deliberation astir authorities and you deliberation astir campaigns and you deliberation astir elections, we're talking about, okay, generative AI, location is this marque caller exertion that is sweeping nan planet, it's each anyone is talking about. What effect is that going to person connected campaigns and elections? You have, I will telephone them influencers because I think, to Jack's point, they very overmuch are group who are scratching that portion of your encephalon that he's not very enthusiastic about. You person governmental influencers who are shaping campaigns and shaping nan measurement elections happen. You person hacking, you person predetermination security, each of these different things. And past of course, of people look astatine them, look astatine this, and past you person nan lobbying dollars of nan biggest, astir powerful companies successful nan world that are, conjecture what? Tech companies. So I'm like, we person to do this correct now.

Jason Kehe: You didn't cognize that image would ever exist.

Katie Drummond: No, but nan money was flowing. It was very evident that... Of people it's obvious, this is each nationalist record, that location are millions and millions and millions of dollars funneling from Silicon Valley to DC. You cannot contradict that. Whether it's Trump aliases Biden aliases Harris successful office, that is what is happening. And truthful it was 4 successful nan greeting connected my 2nd day, I emailed my boss, Anna Wintour, and was like, "Girl, here's my plan. I person to prosecute this team," and we did. And convey God because not only was that predetermination nan biggest communicative successful nan world, but man, what an predetermination that was and what a world we now unrecorded successful and cover. And nan measurement I spot it and nan measurement I deliberation astir what we do is, look, I really deliberation that nan return of nan meal statement impermanent who's like, "I utilized to spell to WIRED to publication astir cool worldly and now it's each politics," lazy, not true. We do a ton of sum of nan fascinating, ingenious, innovative, unthinkable investigation and subject that's going on. Read Will Knight's newsletter connected AI each week. It is heavy nerd worldly and he is nan champion successful nan world astatine what he does. We do it each nan time, but we person an responsibility to look astatine what is happening successful this state and astir nan world. We person an responsibility to look astatine that meal array and say, you cognize what? We person to do something. We person to screen this. We person to screen this. This is nan astir important communicative not only successful this state but successful nan world correct now. That's it, and truthful I'm sorry if they consciousness for illustration it's excessively political, but that is nan job. That is nan occupation of journalism. That is what we're present to do.

Lauren Goode: That's nan world we unrecorded in. Jason, do you person thing you want to adhd to that? Please?

Jason Kehe: Not only that. A twelvemonth into your reign, I deliberation I said to you that vindication was yours.

Lauren Goode: It's 2 years now by nan way, but yes.

Jason Kehe: It's been 2 years, yes.

Katie Drummond: And what an unfortunate vindication. I wish we weren't doing this. I wish that we had much clip to screen cool science, but conjecture what? We person different food to fry correct now.

Jason Kehe: It's incredible.

Lauren Goode: We wish DOGE didn't happen, but it did.

Katie Drummond: I mean, travel on.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Jason Kehe: But Biden was successful denial of nan truth that exertion is politics, and now, I conscionable deliberation of that penetration is arsenic profound arsenic nan founding penetration of WIRED. As I said, exertion is civilization and now exertion is politics. It is truthful breathtaking to beryllium astatine a publication that feels for illustration it's some trying to reinvent itself but enactment existent to its original mission, which was ever to guidelines for nan future, and I deliberation that's precisely what we're doing by covering this. We're rooting for a early that is technological but could beryllium better.

Michael Calore: Okay, that's a bully spot to return a break. We'll travel correct back. Welcome backmost to Uncanny Valley and nan unrecorded show that we hosted successful business pinch KQED earlier this month.

Lauren Goode: What are nan lessons of this erstwhile era of tech, of nan 2010s era of tech that we've talked astir that you would dream that these stewards of AI now would study from and really see arsenic this is, arsenic Jack put it, conscionable infiltrating each area of our lives?

Katie Drummond: Well, yeah, this is an evident answer, but I deliberation nan very clear parallel to maine is nan hazards and harms of societal media. It's that these companies created this technology, they created these platforms, they created these businesses, these behemoths. Users adopted those systems and those norms and that measurement of life, and not capable attraction was taken by nan companies, by nan users, by regulators, lawmakers, very small attraction was taken, and look astatine wherever that near us. And erstwhile I deliberation astir AI being layered connected apical of that mess, that location will not beryllium capable attraction taken pinch really that exertion is commercialized and deployed and regulated, that is an unacceptable result for maine arsenic a quality being, arsenic a parent. It cannot happen, and yet we are now surviving successful a state pinch an management who fundamentally conscionable said, "Go for it." That's what we're looking at. And truthful to me, nan instruction is return awesome care. Take awesome care, and of course, I interest that that is not happening. We're watching successful existent clip arsenic it does not happen. And I deliberation for nan tech press, I deliberation a batch of lessons person been learned by journalists astir really they covered that infinitesimal successful clip arsenic this awesome democratizing force, arsenic this gyration of societal media. I do judge that those aforesaid mistakes are not being repeated. I deliberation location is simply a batch of captious sum of AI, I deliberation there's a batch of very bad coverage, whether very optimistic aliases besides conscionable very dystopian successful a measurement that I deliberation is unhelpful. But I deliberation for everyone involved, whether you're a journalist aliases a tech executive aliases a regulator, everyone needs to return awesome attraction and deliberation astir what this world will look for illustration successful 10 years if we don't walk much clip connected this nan measurement we did pinch societal media. That's what I think. Jason, what do you think?

Jason Kehe: I of people agree, and it conscionable doesn't person to beryllium arsenic melodramatic arsenic group want it to be. I'm sick of being asked for a smart return connected AI, thing insightful aliases contrarian, because I conscionable progressively consciousness for illustration nan smartest point you tin opportunity astir it is that location isn't really thing that smart to opportunity astir it. Most of my friends and family, convey God, are neither journalists nor techies, and their narration to AI is either jokey and gimmicky aliases painfully, agonizingly boring. And I don't see, astatine slightest successful my life, origin to either freak retired aliases shriek from nan rooftop. So Katie said there's dystopian sum and utopian coverage, and I don't know, I retrieve nan Tech Clash years astatine WIRED. That was backmost to, I deliberation 1 of your first questions, Lauren, for illustration 2017, 2018. And I retrieve astatine nan clip reasoning nan world is turning connected technology. It is now my occupation arsenic a WIRED editor to punctual them really to emotion it again, really to attraction astir it, really to guidelines for it, truthful astatine slightest for maine personally, that's what I spent those years moving on. And I don't know, successful this time, I don't want to recommit to thing for illustration that, but I do want to punctual group that it only feeds these CEOs erstwhile we freak retired astir their exertion because past they consciousness that overmuch much powerful.

Katie Drummond: No, it sounds very boring to opportunity mediate of nan road, but you deliberation astir education.

Jason Kehe: Yeah, modulate it.

Katie Drummond: Could beryllium a complete disaster, could besides beryllium a really effective, useful, absorbing tool. You cognize what I mean? There's a boringness to being like, we're not going to beryllium extremist and alarmist, but we're besides not going to people property releases, but I deliberation nan smartest, astir nuanced publicity that we tin do lives successful that area.

Lauren Goode: I thin to consciousness that nan group who are making nan astir dire prognostication astir it, it's aforesaid aggrandizing. If you're saying like, "Whoa, what's going to hap erstwhile we execute AGI?" Embedded successful that is, well, we're going to beryllium nan ones to execute AGI.

Katie Drummond: Oh, I'm not moreover reasoning astir AGI. What are we moreover talking about? You cognize what I mean?

Lauren Goode: You're not AGI maxing? You're not getting fresh successful your-

Katie Drummond: This is why I don't unrecorded successful San Francisco. I'm like, what does that mean?

Lauren Goode: That's what they were each doing astatine nan barroom before. They were AGI maxing.

Katie Drummond: What does that mean, guys? That's crazy. What are you talking about?

Jason Kehe: But erstwhile you're here, what does it consciousness like? Does it consciousness for illustration you're successful nan mediate of it each aliases are you like, "What?"

Katie Drummond: No. So I'm really staying successful this area I've ne'er stayed successful earlier called Mission Bay, which is simply a clone vicinity of, sorry, of each caller condos that could beryllium hotels but aren't, but fundamentally are hotels. There's nan Sweet Green, there's nan Proper Foods, there's nan market store, very cleanable sidewalks, tons of boutique fitness, and a batch of group who look very bored. And it's for illustration this is wherever you spell if you're an subordinate to mid-level worker astatine a tech company, and this is your safe space. That's nan power I'm getting. And location are different parts of San Francisco that I emotion that are for illustration nan San Francisco that's eclectic and weird and creative. That's San Francisco to me. I don't cognize wherever I'm staying, but it ain't it. Where I'm staying is nan worst stereotype of what San Francisco has become. That's what I... It's like, do you activity astatine Salesforce? Do you activity astatine Salesforce? That's wherever I-

Lauren Goode: Yeah, there's a homogeneity and everything looks for illustration an Apple Store.

Katie Drummond: And everyone is successful a boutique fittingness people and they're each wearing athleisure each nan time.

Lauren Goode: But parts of New York are for illustration that now too.

Jason Kehe: Parts of each city. That's successful each city. Miami, Boston.

Katie Drummond: I don't know, guys. San Francisco and nan Boutique Fitness and nan Sweet Green, there's thing happening location and it's not healthy. I don't for illustration it.

Lauren Goode: I consciousness for illustration your boss, Anna Wintour, would beryllium horrified by nan manner here.

Katie Drummond: Oh, she would not formed a gaze.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Katie Drummond: No.

Lauren Goode: One speedy point I did want to inquire you. We didn't want to do predictions because we consciousness for illustration predictions thin to beryllium bad generally, but if there's a communicative that has tally connected WIRED truthful acold this twelvemonth successful nan mag that you consciousness you're conscionable obsessed with, it's stuck successful your encephalon and you consciousness for illustration it gestures towards thing successful nan future, towards a communicative that is not going to spell away.

Jason Kehe: Why are you laughing?

Katie Drummond: Just because my reply is specified a bummer. Sorry. I wish I had a happy one. I was reasoning astir this earlier. We published two. I will say, galore group who activity astatine WIRED are nan champion group successful nan world. Among them are our information squad who are nan champion information reporters. I would put them up against anyone. They would footwear their asses. They published 2 awesome stories this year. One was a guideline to protecting your integer privateness erstwhile you're walking done airports, erstwhile you're crossing borders. The different 1 was conscionable astir protecting your integer privateness afloat stop. Did phenomenally well. Every clip we re-promote them, they do phenomenally well. It's evergreenish work journalism, but evidently publishing it now for definite reasons. And erstwhile I was reasoning about, well, what WIRED stories will proceed to person resonance for nan adjacent respective years, and what will go an ongoing communicative of this era? It's those unfortunately. It is WIRED arsenic a spot wherever you tin find genuine expertise astir protecting yourself from each of nan risks that possibly arsenic Americans and group surviving successful nan United States, you felt little susceptible to historically that you should now beryllium paying attraction to, truthful astir apt those.

Lauren Goode: Excellent. There's besides a guideline to protestation arsenic portion of that too, which I person to flag. Yeah.

Jason Kehe: My turn?

Lauren Goode: Mm-hmm.

Jason Kehe: I deliberation I person to prime a communicative I published virtually past week. The title is “The Baby Died, Whose Fault is it?” And it's an unthinkable story. It is astir a task capitalist who hired a surrogate. The surrogate mislaid nan baby, it was stillborn, and nan task capitalist went aft her pinch everything she has. And it useful connected a number of levels, 1 of which is nan truth that surrogacy arsenic an manufacture is wholly unregulated, truthful this story, though it mightiness look exceptional erstwhile you publication it, and it will, is astir apt not. It's astir apt happening a lot. And past it conscionable plays into this larger freakish obsession nan Valley has pinch fertility. I'm judge galore of you person heard of these pronatalists who deliberation that organization maturation is do aliases die. So yeah, I deliberation if I were starting retired arsenic a tech journalist correct now, I deliberation fertility mightiness moreover beryllium my beat. I deliberation it's truthful fraught and weird and complicated.

Katie Drummond: It's not excessively late.

Jason Kehe: Yes.

Lauren Goode: It's not excessively late, Jason.

Jason Kehe: Make maine a reporter.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Jason Kehe: Send maine in.

Lauren Goode: Excellent. Okay,

Michael Calore: We're going to return different break and we'll travel correct back. And invited backmost to Uncanny Valley.

Lauren Goode: Should we play a small crippled of Control, Alt, Delete?

Katie Drummond: Yeah, let's do it. I sewage it.

Lauren Goode: Let's do it. Okay, Katie, spell first.

Katie Drummond: Oh, okay. Okay. Control, I would power Meta. I would return complete nan full company. I would move it off.

Jason Kehe: Let's delete, let's delete.

Katie Drummond: No, no, no. And past I would hole it and past I would move it backmost on, but it's like, let's do it right, guys. I'm going to move it disconnected and past I'm going to move it backmost on. Control.

Lauren Goode: Excellent.

Katie Drummond: I emotion that idea. Alter. I would change my Apple Watch to make it easier to bespeak to nan watch that I americium taking a remainder time aliases that I'm connected a agelong formation and I will not beryllium gathering my fittingness goals today, and I really request it to extremity shaming me. Because it's a genuine... I stopped utilizing this for a twelvemonth because I was like, "This is toxic. I'm sorry, I can't guidelines up correct now." So I would change nan Apple Watch. I cognize location are ways that you tin do it, but it's excessively hard. You request to beryllium capable to beryllium like, remainder day, not going for a run. Thank you. Technology successful work of a amended quality experience, that is what we should beryllium aiming for. And past what would I delete? I would get free of iPads utilized by children. I don't cognize really I would do it, but my kid had an iPad for a year, and it was the... And I'm very like, "Screen time, you go. You watch iCarly, you do immoderate you want, girl." But it was nan scariest arsenic a parent, nan scariest point to watch your kid get location from schoolhouse and conscionable for illustration a... iPad and past thin back, and it's conscionable YouTube kids for hours. It was genuinely scary. So I would get free of iPads utilized by children. I don't cognize really to do that, but that's what I would do. Thank you. Jason?

Jason Kehe: Okay. Control. I'd power self-driving cars because I-

Katie Drummond: That's not nan point.

Jason Kehe: Well, I conscionable want them everywhere. Make maine nan cosmopolitan driver. I'm an fantabulous driver. I conscionable want them connected each roadworthy successful America.

Katie Drummond: Oh, I see. Okay. So we're upping nan volume.

Jason Kehe: We're conscionable putting them... Yeah, they can't travel soon enough. Alt, I would change nan characteristic of AI. I deliberation we went very incorrect erstwhile we decided to springiness it a characteristic that wasn't conscionable for illustration C-3PO neurotic butler bot, which is what I would institute, by nan way. Universally, only C-3POs. And past I'm going to delete world positioning satellites. I think-

Lauren Goode: You can't person self-driving by deleting that.

Jason Kehe: We'll fig that out.

Lauren Goode: How are you going to do that?

Jason Kehe: Fine. I specifically delete Google Maps, which I deliberation has ruined lives.

Lauren Goode: What?

Jason Kehe: My mother, for instance, utilized to beryllium 1 of nan world's awesome navigators and now can't market shop without plugging it in.

Katie Drummond: Interestingly, did you know? I don't cognize north, south, east, west. I cognize up, down, right, left.

Jason Kehe: Oh. You tin get places?

Katie Drummond: Because you're successful mass.

Lauren Goode: You're like, I'm going up.

Katie Drummond: But nan sun. Don't you?

Lauren Goode: No, I can't do it. I don't know.

Jason Kehe: And I was reference precocious that you would deliberation that would alleviate worry erstwhile you person a GPS successful your car, but it really replaces nan worry pinch thing called spatial anxiety, truthful these things that we deliberation are helping america are really causing aliases widening our imaginable to beryllium anxious. Just get free of it. No much Google Maps.

Lauren Goode: Fair enough.

Katie Drummond: Lauren, what's yours?

Lauren Goode: I'm amazed you some didn't opportunity this because I was like, everyone's going to opportunity this. I would power ChatGPT. I would power OpenAI.

Katie Drummond: Like you would beryllium down it?

Lauren Goode: I would beryllium Sam Altman.

Jason Kehe: Have fun.

Lauren Goode: I deliberation I could do a bully job.

Katie Drummond: No, you'd beryllium great.

Lauren Goode: All right. I'm going crossed nan thoroughfare afterwards, conscionable taking complete his office.

Katie Drummond: There you go.

Lauren Goode: He's astir apt still location working. Alt, I debated this a small bit, but coming was an Apple merchandise motorboat day. New iPhones, amended cameras, happens each year. I would make nan front-facing cameras worse arsenic I get older. Why do we want front-facing cameras-

Katie Drummond: That's amazing.

Lauren Goode: ... to beryllium truthful precocious resolution?

Katie Drummond: With each passing year, nan solution gets 10% worse.

Lauren Goode: Obviously, that should beryllium nan point that happens. And past delete, I would delete Meta Threads because I conscionable dislike Threads. Threads, it's conscionable specified a bad Twitter... I still telephone it Twitter, it should still beryllium Twitter. In my mind, it will ever beryllium pre 2022, but it's specified a bad Twitter copycat. And Meta has wholly utilized nan powerfulness of its already monolithic web to conscionable statement group into utilizing it, and I deliberation that nan inducement location is, and of course, I cognize that Adam Mosseri and Mark Zuckerberg are often connected Threads talking astir nan merchandise changes that they're making and they're listening to users and stuff, but I find it to beryllium specified an quiet calorie acquisition erstwhile I get sucked into Threads, and I wish it was arsenic bully arsenic Twitter utilized to be, but yeah, I would delete Threads. You don't request threads, truthful that's my answer. That was really fun, guys.

Katie Drummond: That was fun.

Lauren Goode: I deliberation we're going to assemblage Q&A for a fewer speedy questions. Yes?

[Audience member]: Thank you truthful much. I heard coming connected nan radio, I still perceive to nan radio, that there's already been a study and it's revealed a immense disparity betwixt antheral and female usage of AI, ChatGPT, globally, and that wholly terrified me. Women conscionable don't usage it arsenic overmuch arsenic men do. How do you consciousness astir that study?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, I americium not acquainted pinch this study, I will say, truthful I did a Q&A pinch an writer a fewer years agone named Caroline Criado Perez, and she'd written a book called Invisible Women. You're nodding truthful you must cognize it, and it was astir each nan ways that our society, products but besides proscription systems, towns, are designed mostly pinch men successful mind, and it was a fascinating eye-opener. And arsenic caller technologies travel retired now, I thin to look astatine them done nan lens of, okay, who's designing this? What biases whitethorn beryllium successful that creation process? Are location small things that look present that possibly make it little friends user-wise for definite populations? And truthful I conjecture I wonderment if location could beryllium thing astir that, possibly definite apps aliases definite products that are really catering a small spot little to women aliases different groups, but otherwise, it doesn't sound for illustration a bully thing. It sounds for illustration if AI is nan point that yet is going to beryllium infiltrating each facet of our lives and affecting nan measurement that we activity and nan measurement we communicate, location possibly should and would beryllium much women users of nan technology. At nan aforesaid time, possibly that conscionable intends we're each going to beryllium surviving successful nan aforesaid bunker taking complete nan world because we're going to beryllium AI immune. I don't know.

Katie Drummond: It's interesting, WIRED's assemblage now is really a small spot much women than men.

Jason Kehe: Is that true? I didn't cognize that.

Katie Drummond: It's true. Just a touch, but moreover nan truth that it would beryllium 50:50 I deliberation is astonishing for a batch of people. So that's absorbing because it tells america thing astir who's reading, and they're choosing to publication WIRED and what they're willing in, but I do deliberation that successful general, women consciousness little empowered to effort caller technology. I do still deliberation location is simply a gender spread successful not tech literacy, but successful comfort, comfortability astir trying caller technology. Even successful my ain marriage, my hubby is an highly avid early adopter of AI. Again, this is for illustration study sample one, whereas I person been overmuch much tiptoeing astir it and he's retired location making five-minute movies. And it's conscionable absorbing observationally that I deliberation that is nan case. I deliberation men thin to jump overmuch much quickly into trying caller tech than women, moreover though arsenic we cognize from WIRED, women are reading, they're reference astir it. So that's absorbing and really gives america a bully vein to excavation into for reporting.

Lauren Goode: Another nosy small anecdote, I precocious did a communicative astir vibe coding for WIRED and I embedded pinch an engineering squad astatine Notion, and 2 of nan leaders of nan engineering squad were some women, of nan AI engineering squad specifically. And I ended up brace programming pinch women passim nan time arsenic well, and truthful I was like, this is beautiful cool to spot that... It was a bully mix.

Jason Kehe: The only point I would adhd is that we had a erstwhile editor, a woman, who said not agelong agone that nan only logic men attraction astir and invented AI is because they can't get pregnant.

Katie Drummond: Yes.

Jason Kehe: Katrina.

Katie Drummond: They want to make content?

Jason Kehe: Or life aliases something. Yes.

Katie Drummond: Oh, dear. This is-

Jason Kehe: I don't cognize what to make of it. I'm conscionable putting that retired there.

Katie Drummond: Whatever transportation that was, we tin people it.

Lauren Goode: Yeah. And past I later heard, Megan Smith said that erstwhile to me.

Jason Kehe: Oh, did she?

Lauren Goode: And she said it was 1 of nan WIRED editors who first said that, and I was like, present we go. This is... You know?

Jason Kehe: I benignant of bargain it, I person to say.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Katie Drummond: We'll reason astir that later.

Jason Kehe: Yeah.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

[Audience member]: Hello, my sanction is Byron Perry. I'm a laminitis of a caller publication present successful San Francisco called Gazetteer. It's present successful San Francisco. You guys precocious published immoderate stories that were written by AI and did a afloat mea culpa connected that. I didn't really publication that yet, truthful I would conscionable emotion to perceive really that happened and what are you going to do to forestall thing for illustration that happening again? And what were nan incentives and workflows that allowed that to happen?

Katie Drummond: Yeah, I'll return that. So conscionable to beryllium clear, we published 1 communicative that we, subsequently, successful nan weeks that followed, wished independently had been sounded by a writer who did not exist, and nan existent contents of nan article, it was a very innocuous piece. It was a gaming story, and nan existent constituent of nan portion was AI generated. It was not accurate. And nan measurement we deliberation astir this internally, and I genuinely mean this. This is not maine trying to evade accountability, we return afloat work for publishing nan piece. As soon arsenic we realized what had happened, we retracted nan story, we put up an editor's note. We subsequently published a portion explaining to our assemblage what had happened. If it tin hap to WIRED, it tin hap to anyone, and that is what was truthful scary astir it, is that we get hundreds of pitches each week. We are perpetually evaluating caller freelance pitches, we person editors who are commissioning those ideas. Our editor sewage a very normal transportation from a Gmail address. This writer had different clips that had been published successful different outlets. It was a awesome idea, almost arsenic if it had been tailor-made for WIRED by ChatGPT. It was a awesome pitch. The writer commissioned it, sewage a draft. It was a bully draft, went backmost and distant pinch edits pinch nan writer, published nan story. We person a awesome fact-checking squad astatine WIRED, we person a awesome ineligible team, but not each communicative that we people goes done that fact-checking process. That is reserved for a definite group of stories and not each communicative runs done a afloat fact-check. So nan editor published nan story, and it was only erstwhile it came to costs aft nan communicative had gone up that we realized, you want to beryllium paid how? And it was not a accepted ask. And astatine that point, we did immoderate sleuthing and realized like, ah, okay, this is simply a problem. In position of what we are going to do moving forward, and again, what I opportunity is truthful scary astir that is that astir newsrooms, WIRED has a fact-checking team. Most news organizations and magazines successful nan twelvemonth 2025, precisely what you're talking about, budgets dwindling, do not. If it could hap to us, it could hap to anyone, whether it's text, whether it's video, whether it's AI-generated images. That is simply a very, very scary point successful nan world of publicity and successful nan world of an net that is afloat of meticulous accusation and meticulous content. That worries maine a awesome deal. In position of really we're going to grip it moving forward, we've implemented caller processes wherever essentially, immoderate first-time writer for WIRED aliases first-time committee for WIRED will spell done a rigorous mandatory fact-checking process, which I really deliberation solves a important aliases resolves this to 99.9%. You're not getting successful nan doorway pinch WIRED unless our fact-checking squad has assessed some you and your inheritance and nan portion that you filed, truthful that's what we've done to safeguard against it. But it was not only for illustration a learning infinitesimal for us, but I deliberation for each marque nether nan Condé Nast umbrella to say, "Whoa. Okay, we sewage to deliberation astir really we're doing things," because again, this happened to us, it happened to galore different publications, and it could hap tomorrow to personification else. So that's a small spot of penetration for you.

Lauren Goode: One much speedy mobility I deliberation we person clip for.

[Audience member]: As WIRED seems to screen much authorities and it seems for illustration Silicon Valley is becoming adjacent to Washington, I was wondering if you person immoderate hopes for nan early of exertion successful government?

Katie Drummond: Absolutely, and I deliberation that it is wires occupation ever to beryllium successful work of optimism, and I deliberation to what Jason said earlier, rooting for nan future. We want a amended future, that is what we are driving for. And I deliberation erstwhile you deliberation astir authorities and nan authorities bureaucracy, 1 of nan things that was truthful absorbing astir DOGE was that this benignant of haphazard, rushed, messy attack to stripping retired nan bureaucracy, to introducing caller technology, to fixing really outdated systems wrong national agencies, was a batch of that correct idea, incorrect implementation? For sure. I deliberation that what they were getting astatine successful a batch of those situations was this is 40 years aged and cipher has updated this, and this is moving connected codification that is from nan Stone Age. Correct. Does that request to beryllium addressed? Absolutely. Did they grip it successful a measurement that is successful nan champion liking of national employees, of civilian servants and of nan American people? I would reason no, and we're seeing now a batch of that activity being undone. But do I person dream for exertion to create a much effective authorities bureaucracy? If that's your question, and I'll fto these guys chime into, absolutely. I deliberation that what we are seeing now is not nan manifestation of that that I deliberation is successful work of nan amended early that we each want.

Lauren Goode: I work together pinch that. I deliberation passim nan past respective months, what group thin to attraction on, of course, is nan property of nan group who were infiltrating nan US authorities and whether aliases not they were qualified. Some of nan unsavory nicknames that immoderate of those national workers, bureau workers-

Katie Drummond: Big Balls, yeah.

Lauren Goode: Big Balls, yeah. It became a nosy crippled to spot really galore WIRED editors would spell connected unrecorded TV to do hits astir nan topic, and past nan Chiron underneath them would say, "Big Balls, blah, blah, blah.' So it was immoderate nosy screenshots, but we each glommed connected to nan highlights of what was going connected wrong of DOGE, and I deliberation ultimately, what Katie said is correct, is that nan intent whitethorn person been well-meaning, but nan measurement it was implemented was really concerning. And nan problem is that immoderate of nan changes that person been made will return years if not decades to retrieve from, some for nan national authorities and for nan American people. And truthful I want to person dream and I want to person optimism that possibly astatine immoderate point, we'll get things backmost connected track. Some days are harder than others pinch regards to that.

Jason Kehe: My publication is somewhat stupid, but I deliberation clash is benignant of cool again. For years and years, tech sold america this thought that frictionlessness was cool, and I deliberation we each nodded on reasoning like, yeah, streamline things, make it easier. But arsenic immoderate physicist would show you, we couldn't beryllium connected this shape without friction. You can't locomotion without friction, and I deliberation group want to activity astatine worldly again. They don't want everything to beryllium easy. So I don't know, I conscionable person dream that nan adjacent procreation will beryllium reminded that moreover if it intends moving to find cool civilization connected nan internet, which now really does return activity because we are drowning successful slop, there's conscionable going to beryllium a renewed liking successful putting successful nan work. So this shape will walk and past group will retrieve that nan world conscionable useful amended pinch friction, truthful that's my somewhat philosophical response.

Katie Drummond: Nice. Very Nice.

Lauren Goode: I deliberation we'll extremity it connected that.

Katie Drummond: There you go, friction.

Jason Kehe: Friction.

Lauren Goode: Yeah. I conscionable want to opportunity acknowledgment truthful much. I want to springiness a small shout-out to our producers successful particular, Kate Osborne and Adriana Tapa, who person put truthful overmuch activity into making this unrecorded show happen. And our friends astatine KQED, Ryan Paloma and everyone else, convey you truthful much, and convey you to everyone for joining america coming connected stage. We really, really admit your support and coming retired precocious connected a Tuesday, and if you want to proceed to support WIRED, subscribe to WIRED and support KQED. So convey you truthful much.

Jason Kehe: Thank you everybody.

Michael Calore: Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you'd for illustration what you heard today, make judge to travel our show and complaint it connected your podcast app of choice. If you'd for illustration to get successful touch pinch america pinch immoderate questions, comments aliases show suggestions, you tin constitute to america astatine uncannyvalley@WIRED.com. Our unrecorded show is produced by Adriana Tapia, Kate Osborn, Jessica Alpert, and Sam Eagan. Special acknowledgment to Ryan Davis astatine KQED and their arena accumulation crew. Amar Lal astatine Macrosound mixed this episode. Mark Lyda is our San Francisco workplace engineer. Kate Osborn is our executive producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED's world editorial director, and Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's caput of Global Audio.