Lee Pace Has Big Hopes for the Fourth Season of ‘Foundation’

In nan world of prestige sci-fi, Foundation reigns arsenic nan biggest sleeper hit. Mention nan Apple TV+ adjustment of Isaac Asimov’s classical bid successful a group of friends and you’ll abruptly find everyone has been secretly watching it. Something of a flawed masterpiece, nan show, which wraps its 3rd play Friday, has been averaging astir 1.5 cardinal hours watched per week successful nan US complete nan past month, according to Luminate. Not Wednesday numbers, but successful nan aforesaid ballpark arsenic different genre fare for illustration HBO Max’s Peacemaker.

Reasons for nan show’s fame are many, but it’s seemed to person gained traction arsenic it’s go more, well, relevant. The series, for illustration Asimov’s books, focuses connected a group of economists utilizing a predictive algorithm to guideline nan destiny of humanity done nan illness of a galactic empire. Wealthy and powerful group person besides recovered ways to clone themselves and each but unrecorded forever. Artificial intelligence and longevity advocates? In 2025, Foundation has proven to beryllium not only 1 of nan smartest sci-fi shows connected TV but besides 1 among one of nan astir prescient.

But there’s different entreaty for a, shall we say, much circumstantial subset of fans: an oft-shirtless—and for communicative reasons, navel-less—Lee Pace. The Halt and Catch Fire character plays Cleon, an emperor who achieved immortality of a benignant done different means. Pace embodies galore versions of Cleon, each clones of a long-dead original who created a strategy successful which location are, astatine immoderate 1 time, 3 copies of himself lording complete nan galaxy. The youngest is known arsenic Brother Dawn; nan oldest arsenic Brother Dusk. Paramount among them is Pace’s Brother Day.

Pace intelligibly enjoys nan challenge. Fans bask watching him ruthlessly destruct planets and return psychedelic trips, nan second starring them to dub him Brother Dude, aft Jeff Bridges’ characteristic successful The Big Lebowski. He besides appreciates his show’s profoundly cerebral bent. When WIRED said to him from nan group of Practical Magic 2 successful London, he was eager to talk nan quality of a clone’s consciousness, carrying astir robot heads, and his hopes for nan show’s 4th season, which Apple TV+ announced connected Thursday. He was besides eager to stock immoderate of his on-set photos pinch america (see below).

This question and reply has been edited for clarity and magnitude and to make nan interviewer sound much coherent. It contains tons of spoilers.

TIM MARCHMAN: One of nan things that’s really breathtaking astir Foundation is really it projects retired existent trends. I deliberation this is 1 of nan much superior treatments of cloning and AI exertion that we've seen. Do you deliberation of nan various Cleons arsenic wholly independent entities, aliases 1 personification who's connected a continuum complete thousands of years?

LEE PACE: So that’s benignant of nan riddle we group up pinch Cleon. The thought we statesman pinch is that they’re nan aforesaid person. On Foundation you’ve sewage these characters that person figured retired a measurement to cheat death, 1 measurement aliases another. You've sewage Gaal, who sleeps done time; you've sewage Hari Seldon, who digitizes his consciousness; you've sewage Demerzel nan robot [who has lived thousands of years and serves arsenic aide, mother, and sometimes moreover person to generations of Cleons aft being enslaved by his dynasty], and you’ve sewage Cleon, nan emperor, who died hundreds of years ago, but he's cloning himself nether this imagination that it's nan aforesaid person.

But that’s impossible. At nan extremity of nan first season, we present nan thought that location is sentience, that they are unsocial individuals—but it's existent and not true, because they’re nan same, and they're different.

Right, that’s nan twist.

In play two, I played a feline who thought he was unique, thought he was nan champion of them, but he's nary different than nan rest. They're, astatine nan aforesaid time, nan astir valuable assemblage successful nan postulation but besides utterly replaceable and without worth astatine all, because they're conscionable nutrient suits that nan robot is carnating. So that's been nosy for maine to play arsenic an character and nosy for maine arsenic a instrumentality of subject fabrication to play pinch that riddle, nan thought that they are nan aforesaid and different.

They besides are successful different times. Cleon XII, astatine nan very opening of our series, was increasing up astatine a clip of nan Empire being incredibly stable, incredibly powerful. And Cleon XXIV, that I play correct now, is personification who was raised nether nan Empire's contraction, raised pinch nan robot’s benignant of accrued power.

You saw nan season. What do you make of it? What do you make of him successful comparison to nan others?

I deliberation he's nan astir fascinating one, partially because he feels for illustration nan astir human. There's nan Brother Dude aspect, which I like, but I besides for illustration that there's this move that seems to flip. He is wholly objectifying Demerzel, and past he realizes that she is an intelligence, not an object, and it instantly changes his behavior. It raises immoderate questions to maine astir whether he'd realized that each on and didn't want to look it, but that's nan mystery.

That's what's absorbing astir it—the truth was ever there, you conscionable didn't spot it because of nan affectional upwind he was surviving in. She was ever there. She was a prisoner, conscionable for illustration he was. She is tin of truthful overmuch much than he could moreover fathom.

Did you publication nan Foundation books earlier nan show? Did you bring immoderate of that to your thought of Cleon?

I'm a immense instrumentality of Isaac Asimov. I came into nan show a instrumentality of his work, and I'd publication Foundation. But really, nan point I publication very early connected of Isaac Asimov—and this is wholly a detour—was his study of nan Shakespeare plays. He has this unthinkable measurement wherever he breaks down nan history down them and what Shakespeare mightiness person intended. Some of nan astir absorbing worldly that he writes astir are nan robots and humans’ narration to technology. So I consciousness for illustration astatine nan extremity of play three, we're benignant of unlocking immoderate of nan richest worldly that Isaac Asimov created wrong nan Foundation universe.

There are aggregate characters successful nan show who person defeated death, aliases astatine slightest tried to conclusion death, pinch comparative levels of success. That's 1 of nan really fascinating things astir it, is seeing these different dynamics betwixt these characters who person copies of their consciousness, aliases persistent consciousness. What do you deliberation is unsocial astir Cleon arsenic opposed to Demerzel, who are some operating complete nan aforesaid clip span but experiencing it successful wholly different ways?

Definitely maine and Laura [Birn, who plays Demerzel] person a awesome clip reasoning astir this, because there's a unsocial narration that she has pinch each of nan Cleons, but nan wide move of nan communicative is their difference. And each nan characters—Gaal, Hari—there's a number of characters that benignant of foil each different successful a way. It's a very cerebral show; it's astir nan mind. Gaal's mind, this bonzer quality capability; Hari's mind, this scheme that he has hatched and his expertise to benignant of forecast; Demerzel, who is an artificial intellect; and past Cleon.

He mightiness beryllium nan least, shall we say, intelligence 1 of nan bunch.

What I've unlocked, what I recovered to beryllium really existent astir him, is that he's a mess. He's quality and profoundly flawed. He thought he was nan leader of nan story, but successful reality location was different hero, and he was nan bad feline and he didn't moreover see it. I consciousness for illustration what is existent astir Cleon is that he's sewage this small heart of, That's nan correct way. That's it. That's my opportunity.

Very overmuch so.

He puts himself successful problem successful messy situations, and past he gets a hunch. I'm gonna travel that. He does, and astir of nan clip it useful retired for him. I deliberation that's what happens successful this season. That goes backmost to nan inherited quality of Cleon is that he gets this hunch of, I'm gonna get retired of nan palace, and I don't cognize what I'm going to find there, but I person a bully emotion astir it. And that's what gets him out. He doesn't person immoderate thought that he's going to study what he learns, he's going to summation nan consciousness of intent that he finds. Although it's not rationality successful immoderate way, it's not logic, I do deliberation it describes a benignant of intelligence.

OK, fair.

He's not a dummy. He's toe-to-toe pinch these incredibly intelligent, cerebral minds—but he's sewage a very unsocial benignant of cerebral mind, wherever he's not conscious of his intelligence. Maybe nan truth is that it's successful his DNA, it's written into that Cleonic DNA, moreover though he's ne'er been taught it. You know, it's there, it's an small heart to predominate successful a way, to travel retired connected top. I tin springiness you my measurement of reasoning astir it, but it's surely not nan only measurement to deliberation astir it.

One of nan absorbing things astir this move you’re describing is that Cleon is fundamentally nan only awesome characteristic who is not acting according to nan dictates of an algorithm. Part of his travel is discovering that his choices whitethorn successful truth beryllium driven algorithmically without his having known it, owed to Demerzel's influence, and it raises each these questions astir destiny and free will.

But isn't that benignant of what we've done this season? He's rejected nan instrumentality astatine nan beginning, and he's insisted that he's going to deliberation for himself, moreover if it intends he's conscionable going to get stoned and bent retired successful nan plot and tally distant from nan trouble, aliases immoderate work aliases responsibility he mightiness person to help. He really does make a prime to spell get that robot caput and bring it backmost to nan palace, because he's nan only 1 who can.

Yes, retrieving a robot caput from a murderous cult leader is simply a choice.

He's nan only 1 who was raised by a robot—actually, him and his brothers. I deliberation we create this thought astatine nan extremity of this play that nan robots, though he believed them to beryllium nary amended than a manipulative dishwasher, an iPhone, whatever, successful reality they're for illustration angels, you know? It's for illustration a goddess that he's been surviving with, and he didn't moreover spot it. And, yes, she created him, but he's only a very mini portion of a magnificent scheme that’s centuries, hundreds of years aged to prevention humanity. He plays a tiny, mini part.

It's thing to spot him exploring that, particularly successful nan discourse of our ain time, erstwhile we’re each guided by our various algorithms and wondering really overmuch of what we do is america and really overmuch is nan machines telling america what to do and nudging america ever truthful slightly.

And erstwhile he is humbled to spot that, he tin act. He tin make a prime and act. When he's stuck successful his ain symptom and aforesaid value and each of that Cleonic bullshit, he can't make that prime for himself. But erstwhile he, successful a way, dies and is reborn arsenic a conscious, reasoning person, what are nan choices he tin make? He realizes, Oh, I've been successful nan beingness of God my full life. I've had this seraphim guiding maine done and benignant of cultivating my life. And each I had to do was fulfill nan mini small domiciled that she had made for maine and her mind-blowingly magnificent scheme and everything would beryllium OK, you know? So I deliberation that's what willing maine astir nan communicative this season.

You haven't seen nan past episode, person you?

No.

I didn't springiness thing distant conscionable now, did I?

No, no, you were tending successful nan directions I deliberation had been group up. I’m moreover much eager to spot it now. I do person an acting question: How do you and your chap actors play nan aforesaid personification who is not nan aforesaid person?

In nan very first season, we created this thought that they beryllium astir meal and they person nan aforesaid movements—that that's a taste point among these 3 people. We had these method ways of making their shared consciousness ocular and actable in. We conscionable practiced it. We came up pinch this small creation that we would do pinch those meal array scenes. In nan 2nd season, we did thing different pinch it. We created this thought of 1 who's not going to travel nan rules, who’s conscionable going to do it differently, whether nan different brothers for illustration it aliases not.

Oh, interesting.

I emotion moving pinch Terry [Mann, who plays Brother Dusk] and Cassian [Bilton, who plays Brother Dawn] and Laura. It's specified a unsocial conception that [writer and shaper David S. Goyer] had pinch these cloned emperors that are each surviving together arsenic family, and location are tons of different ways to look astatine it. I deliberation it's a wholly original idea, and successful statement pinch nan questions that Asimov asks successful Foundation and his different work.

I wholly work together that it's a genuinely original idea. There’s ever a caller measurement to play basal blues, but this is simply a really caller thought that I can't deliberation of an antecedent for. Maybe location is one.

It's astir time, too. It's astir time. You tin do this point pinch clip and generations, and that's what I consciousness for illustration now we've done successful play three. We've now covered 300 years, and we look backmost moreover further.

Much for illustration Asimov did.

He worked connected this communicative complete truthful galore different decades, penning nan Foundation books, penning them pinch collaborators and uncovering ways to necktie successful different short stories and storylines that he had written successful different books and series, and expanding this world of Foundation.

Yes, but I would besides ideate that overmuch root worldly tin beryllium overwhelming.

I really emotion really connected this show we person not treated nan making of nan bid for illustration instrumentality fiction, wherever we would beryllium like, OK, now we do nan segment wherever this happens and now we do nan segment wherever this happens and this happens and this happens. But we fto nan hugeness of nan communicative that Isaac Asimov near america beryllium connected nan table, and we tin research nan plotlines that he wrote, plotlines that are referred to, plotlines that hap offstage, nan plotlines that he discovered later successful penning and realizing astir nan story.

Right, it stays existent to nan style of Asimov’s ideas without being beholden to them.

As a subject fabrication instrumentality myself, I consciousness for illustration that's for illustration a bully opportunity taken erstwhile we could bring it to screen, to usage and beryllium inspired by everything we person successful beforehand of america pinch what he has achieved successful penning Foundation and past tying successful each of these different different stories and plotlines that he had created throughout. I mean, he's conscionable an incredibly prolific writer.

And 1 of ever expanding scope. I don't want to springiness distant thing for immoderate of our readers who mightiness not beryllium acquainted pinch wherever nan books go, but it keeps getting bigger.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Do you spot that continuing pinch nan series, nan scope continuing to expand?

That's nan opportunity, I think. I dream so. I dream we get a 4th season. [Eds. note: Apple TV+ announced location would beryllium a 4th play of Foundation after WIRED conducted this interview.] I dream we get a chance to grow nan communicative successful that way. I consciousness for illustration that's what we've been doing. There's a large opportunity for nan communicative to grow, and location are things that David has written passim nan first 3 seasons that if we do get to continue, there's decidedly immoderate seeds that tin grow.