Mark Cuban Would Still Have Dinner With Donald Trump

Back successful May, Mark Cuban appeared successful his past section of ABC’s Shark Tank aft spending much than a decade connected nan show investing in—or deprecating—entrepreneurs’ large ideas.

But that doesn’t mean nan billionaire is going away. In fact, he’s arguably much everyplace than ever. He’s showing up connected TV, posting connected Bluesky, and yammering distant connected podcasts almost daily. Yes, Cuban loves to talk—about ideas, astir nan future, astir what it takes to really make America patient again. Or, astatine least, to get Americans much affordable drugs, which Cuban is endeavoring to do pinch his startup, Cost Plus Drug Company.

Nor does Cuban, for illustration galore billionaire businessmen, awkward distant from talking politics: Does he for illustration President Trump? Doesn’t look for illustration it. But would he subordinate nan president for meal for illustration truthful galore of his peers person successful caller months? With enthusiasm, according to a speech we had for this week’s section of The Big Interview. Keep reference to find retired why.

This question and reply has been edited for magnitude and clarity.

KATIE DRUMMOND: Just truthful you know—well it's excessively precocious now—we ever commencement these conversations pinch immoderate rapid-fire questions. Like a warm-up.

MARK CUBAN: Let's lukewarm up. I americium ready.

Alright. What is nan smartest finance you ever made?

Myself.

What's nan dumbest acquisition you ever made?

Um, a batch of alcohol.

Do you still drink?

No.

Alright, 1 connection to picture nan startup pitches that you hate.

Self-absorbed.

Would you alternatively put successful passion aliases successful numbers?

Numbers.

After wellness care, what's nan adjacent manufacture ripe for disruption, whether by you aliases somebody?

Education.

Tell maine a small spot astir why.

The full point is built connected accreditation, which is ridiculous successful and of itself, arsenic opposed to outcomes. And it's because those legalization organizations person sewage truthful overmuch powerfulness there. It influences nan building of universities successful particular, and that building has led to over-emphasis connected administrative positions arsenic opposed to existent teaching.

It's besides allowed costs creep, truthful that they become, alternatively than acquisition institutions, sports institutions that besides hap to teach. I deliberation that there’s a awesome measurement to thatch kids that allows them to learn, that feeds their curiosity, without each nan extraneous shit.

So are you doing it aliases what?

No. I mean, I've talked astir it galore times, but wellness attraction comes first.

First portion of tech you usage each day.

My phone.

The book you urge nan most.

The Fountainhead. I know, don't dislike me.

Oh, that could beryllium a full 2nd podcast section that we do. Who do you matter pinch nan most?

My kids and my wife.

Alright, let's get into it.

Let's get into it.

You've had an unthinkable trajectory. You've evolved importantly complete nan years. Kara Swisher, friend of WIRED, remembers you arsenic ace arrogant successful your early years, but you attained mensch position successful her memoir. When you look backmost 10, 20, 30 years, what stands retired to you?

When I first started, I was broke. That was my impetus. I was surviving pinch 5 guys, six of america successful a three-bedroom apartment, sleeping connected nan floor, eating mustard and ketchup sandwiches, and your information is conscionable to get retired of a shithole, you know? To get location and commencement having a semblance of normalcy.

I sewage fired from a job, and that led maine to commencement my ain business, and successful those circumstances, it's nan powerfulness of broke. It conscionable motivates you. I started to execute occurrence and wanted to enactment that way, right? Because you're ever acrophobic you're gonna autumn backmost into what happened before.

Once you get past nan first success, it builds your confidence. But past you commencement realizing that if you're really gonna person an impact, you're obscurity adjacent arsenic smart arsenic you deliberation you are, and you request help. As I sewage older, that conscionable became much and much of a realization.

How do you respond to being described arsenic arrogant? Do you deliberation you were arrogant?

Absolutely. I'm still arrogant, but nan quality is being arrogant and not listening and being arrogant and being capable to listen.

If you were starting today, let's opportunity you were broke, nary capital, really would you make your first million? What's your proposal to entrepreneurs astatine this moment?

Get a occupation first. You get a occupation because you've gotta beryllium capable to salary nan bills, and there's 24 hours successful nan day. Hopefully you're only moving 8 of those, and maybe, you know, you're taking a small spot of clip for yourself aliases a fewer different hours arsenic well. But then, pinch AI, ohio my god. You person each library, each book, each professor, each advisor correct astatine your fingertips.

AI, though it's not perfect, it's a awesome democratizer for entrepreneurs to springiness them entree to information.

Part 2 is if you don't [use AI], whoever does, they've sewage your beat. So for a kid pinch a telephone and entree to nan internet, I don't attraction if you're successful nan shittiest of shitty situations, you person that opportunity to person entree to nan nonstop aforesaid things personification astatine Harvard aliases Yale has entree to successful position of information.

I want to parse 2 things that you said. The first is, for an emerging entrepreneur, a wannabe entrepreneur, get a job. And past usage artificial intelligence, usage these devices to amended yourself. Right? When you talk to entrepreneurs now, aliases personification looking to commencement their first company, do you constituent them toward AI arsenic a business opportunity? If you were starting your first institution coming would you beryllium successful nan AI startup business?

I wouldn't beryllium trying to create AI applications aliases AI technology.

Sure.

I would beryllium utilizing AI to use it to business processes that are happening correct now successful my ain businesses, successful our Shark Tank companies. That's what we're doing. We're saying this is simply a manual process that drives everybody crazy. You're spending X number of hours to reappraisal this, this, this, and this. You're waiting for accusation earlier you tin make a decision. An AI supplier tin do that successful a millisecond. So let's use it.

Now ideate that there’s a footwear shop that's been tally by nan aforesaid family for 37 years, and they person 4 stores. They're not gonna person a exertion department. So a 14-year-old stepping successful and saying, “Let maine show you really agents work.” Boom. So I've virtually made nan constituent to commencement talking to much and much precocious schoolhouse kids and assemblage kids.

This is precisely what I'm telling them, that location is nary amended clip to commencement a business than correct now. In position of looking for jobs arsenic a graduate, peculiarly for assemblage grads, extremity trying to get a occupation pinch nan large companies.

The large companies spot AI arsenic a measurement to trim costs, and they already person soul IT group who cognize that to support their jobs, they person to study AI.

I'm funny astir what you deliberation this infinitesimal looks for illustration for founders. The Trump management is chaotic. We each cognize liking rates are high. Market enthusiasm for AI is very high. Inflation is touch-and-go. It each feels confusing, astatine slightest to me. How do you deliberation each of these governmental factors, these economical factors, nan AI of it each evidently is cardinal here. How does each of that style nan way for a caller laminitis correct now?

The much things are screwed up, nan amended nan opportunity, because there's ever gonna beryllium much and much group saying, “Nah, I can't do it” aliases “This is an inhibitor, a roadblock to my path.” You know, it's specified a messiness correct now. The vibes aren't there.

Right, right, right. It feels for illustration nan vibes aren't there, but you're saying …

That's ever nan champion time. Where there's change, there's opportunity. When nan vibes are there, liking rates are low, nan money's flowing, everybody and their uncle is starting a business.

Now's …

… not nan time.

Do you interest astir encephalon drain successful this country? You are very overmuch invested successful an entrepreneurial ecosystem successful nan United States. But do you interest that successful 10 years nan editors astatine WIRED will look around, looking for absorbing disruptive group to cover, and we will recognize that nan champion founders, nan champion entrepreneurs are surviving and moving and innovating location else?

Terrifies me. Really, really, really does, you know? On 1 hand, you've sewage group downplaying capitalism, which inherently, that's not important. But if you're downplaying nan American dream? That's what makes this state different.

That's why group want to travel present and commencement companies. There's not a French dream; there's not a German dream; there's not a Chinese dream. There's nan American dream. That's why I was connected Shark Tank for truthful long, and that's why we get tens of thousands of group applying to beryllium connected nan show each year.

Particularly erstwhile nan commencement rates are declining and we request caller ideas and caller opportunities and a batch of success. We want a bully system for group to consciousness bully astir having kids. Just to compete successful nan world economy, you request that 14-, 15-, 12-, whatever-year-old personification coming up pinch an thought that makes everybody say, “Why nan fuck didn't I deliberation of that?”

That's what makes nan state stronger. That's what gives assurance to people. That's what allows america to put successful schools. You gotta person nan money to put 1 measurement aliases nan other. So yeah, we want group coming here.

I work together pinch perfectly everything that you conscionable said. At nan aforesaid time, it feels for illustration connected a play ground astatine WIRED, we're reporting connected thing that successful immoderate measurement will effect precisely what you conscionable described arsenic nan American aspiration. As nan American imperative. China has now introduced a visa program for entrepreneurs, right? Essentially to compete pinch H-1Bs and what nan Trump management is doing pinch regards to those visas here. How does this commencement to change?

I'm gladsome you brought up China, because you gotta commencement reasoning for illustration China and not successful position of 4 years, right? If you conscionable deliberation successful position of two, you know, 8 months, 9 months, aliases 4 years for that matter, you'll thrust yourself crazy. If you deliberation successful position of a longer sky and much strategically, past it's not arsenic melodramatic arsenic it seems successful nan moment, but we person to salary attraction to it and commencement reasoning strategically to effort to get much group investing successful themselves, investing successful their ain education. Because arsenic overmuch arsenic each those things I conscionable mentioned astir AI being a instrumentality for entrepreneurs here, it's conscionable arsenic overmuch a instrumentality for entrepreneurs globally.

Of course.

And why? Why would they travel present unless there's a bully logic to.

I wanna spell backmost a fewer weeks. We saw a group of tech executives having meal pinch Donald Trump astatine nan White House. It was connected C-SPAN, it was wide covered. A fewer weeks aft that we saw thing akin pinch nan president and respective of those executives successful nan UK. I'm funny really you spot Big Tech’s narration to nan president, specifically successful nan discourse of short-term gain, semipermanent pain. Do you interest that we person exertion leaders and tech companies correct now who are making short-term entreaties to this management successful a measurement that mightiness harm not only their companies, but nan US system and US invention much broadly aft that four-year horizon?

No, I deliberation it's nan nonstop opposite. I deliberation they're idiots if they don't do it.

Tell maine more.

So look astatine nan gen-AI foundational exemplary business. How galore models are location gonna be? Is it gonna beryllium a winner-take-all business model? Is it gonna beryllium apical two, apical four? Which 1 of these is gonna beryllium Yahoo? Which 1 of these is gonna beryllium America Online? Which 1 of these is gonna beryllium CompuServe aliases Prodigy? They don't know, either. So they person to spell each in.

And if they request to get knee pads that are embroidered pinch a D connected 1 knee and a T connected nan different knee, and show up astatine nan White House each day, they don't person overmuch of a choice, because they're spending tens of billions of dollars a year. They're going into debt. They're raising further superior wherever needed successful bid to effort to play nan crippled and support up knowing that location is simply a bully chance that it's arsenic winner-take-all arsenic immoderate different business.

But nan quality present is location are trillions and trillions of dollars astatine liking complete nan adjacent 30 years, astir apt much than that. So if they didn't do it, and you are connected nan outs pinch immoderate AI argumentation they came up with, that would beryllium … you would beryllium fired immediately, and you should be.

If you were moving 1 of those companies, really would you beryllium handling governmental unit from nan Trump White House? Would you beryllium astatine dinner?

Yeah, I would conscionable beryllium drunk.

You'd beryllium drunk. I mean, I dream for their sakes that they were each drunk.

You person nary choice. Look, it's for illustration correct now pinch wellness care. I mean, I've campaigned for Kamala.

Yeah, you judge did.

So my feelings are known. There's nothing, there's nary surprises astir wherever I stood. But what's much important, my individual feelings aliases trying to find a measurement to amended wellness attraction for 300-plus cardinal people? What's much important? At Cost Plus Drugs we're helping millions of group beryllium capable to spend their medications, and I don't want to do thing to undermine that.

I'm sorry. To me, I attraction much astir nan American group than going backmost to my ego. I understand nan point, peculiarly from far-left progressives, that immoderate support for him is, you know, not bully for nan country. But I conscionable won't look astatine it that way.

I'm reasoning astir what you're saying, and I return each of your points, and I'm reasoning astir YouTube earlier this week spending $24.5 million to settee this suit pinch nan president. A batch of that money going to his ballroom …

Yeah, look, don't get maine …

You cognize what I mean?

Yeah, but what's much important? What is much important: worrying astir nan ballroom and nan dumb crap he does aliases nan personification who can't spend their crab medication? The kid who can't get their pediatric crab injectable?

Well, sure. Tell that to migration enforcement erstwhile they're deporting 8-year-olds pinch cancer. Sundar Pichai is not talking [to Trump] astir wellness care. At slightest you and I are having a speech astir medication.

Well, successful his mind he's fixing wellness attraction astatine immoderate level. I conjecture what I'm driving toward is, OK, are these guys doing this because of a business imperative? Yes, clearly, to immoderate grade they are. But what astir nan civilized imperative?

I deliberation what you’re saying is: Those 2 things can't beryllium unwound. There is simply a bigger picture, civilized imperative to nan economical well-being of nan United States of America, and that needs to beryllium apical of mind, moreover if it intends you're getting drunk connected C-SPAN.

Yep. Because we're successful a position wherever we person to make those choices. Obviously nan penchant would beryllium [to not beryllium successful this situation], and that's why I did what I did successful November, right? Or October, you know? But that's not wherever we are. And nan circumstances we look are nan circumstances we face. Now, you know, if you want to get into politics, we can, but nan reality is, if you're going to effort to thief nan American people, you person to do nan things that thief nan American people.

Even if you person to swallow your pridefulness aliases activity pinch group you different mightiness not like. There's a batch much astatine stake, obviously, than 2 tech companies battling it out.

I deliberation what feels truthful frustrating to truthful galore group correct now, who are lobbing these criticisms, is that there's not an easy solution, right? Do I want to spot Tim Cook stepping into nan Oval Office pinch a tchotchke? Of people I don't want to spot that. I dislike seeing that. I'm judge he hates doing that. Do I want to spot companies whose valuations prop up this full system tank? No, I don't want to spot that either. It's a very, very uncomfortable place.

So if you deliberation of it arsenic 3 years and 3 months, right? We're 3 years and 1 period from getting to that election, you know? Will location beryllium an election? Let's conscionable put that speech because we can't reside that. But moreover for nan midterms. What creates change, to alteration that equilibrium of powerfulness successful our government? It’s taking action items that get nan group of nan United States of America to understand that location are group who attraction astir their wellbeing.

Right now, X percentage, immoderate it is, astir 40 percent deliberation Donald Trump cares astir their wellbeing and they spot him. Now we're not giving them reasons to spot personification else. When you look astatine nan authorities shutdown, erstwhile you look astatine different things, it's not for illustration nan Democrats are retired location saying, “We are doing this for you.” No, they're saying—they're playing politics.

They're not saying, “We're doing this temporarily because we person nary choice.” This is what's connected nan table. We request to support nan [Affordable Care Act] live for nan group who can't spend their deductibles aliases are past their deductible for this year.

Right.

So nan constituent is, if you don't for illustration nan feline successful agency astatine nan top, if you want to alteration nan equilibrium of power, alternatively of bitching, do things and don't conscionable say, “Hey, we don't person a mostly anywhere, truthful we can't do …” No, you can. Instead of saying, “The oligarchs are ruining everything.” What percent of Americans do you deliberation attraction astir maine arsenic a billionaire successful their day-to-day life?

Well, I deliberation they attraction very small different than resenting each of you.

Yeah. And we each person resentment astatine 1 level aliases another, right? For something, right? So what are you doing to alteration shit? Because if you're not trying to alteration anything, your statement brand's going into nan shitter. You're not gonna alteration nan marque of immoderate statement because you do thing isolated from bitch. You're not gonna alteration nan cognition of voters if you do thing but kick astir nan feline who's already there.

Mm-hmm.

You could spell to rich | guys for illustration maine and say, together, “We're not successful power, but let's put together this program.”

I teamed up pinch this feline and that's each he does each day, each day. We activity pinch group who are going to dice if they don't get their authorizations approved. It could person been thing that immoderate Democratic leader put forward, took in installments for, amplified, replicated crossed each metropolis correct now.

Right.

Like nan TrumpRx stuff, and each nan Trump supplier pricing worldly they're pushing. They're pushing to amended rate pricing. Great. No downside astatine all, isolated from that if you spell and bargain your Eliquis astatine a rate price, unless you're successful Tennessee aliases Texas, you can't conscionable nonstop successful nan receipt for that supplier and person it use against your deductible max out-of-pocket. Where is 1 azygous Democrat, aliases Republican for that matter, proposing that?

As WIRED has covered before, you're nan cofounder of nan Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company. You are genuinely, and I opportunity this arsenic a cynical journalist, you are genuinely disrupting nan pharma industry, right? You're challenging nan middlemen. You are changing nan dynamics of transparency astir supplier cost. Ultimately, do you deliberation that transparency unsocial is capable to thrust down cost? Or what benignant of deeper structural reforms request to happen?

So is it capable to thrust down prices? Yes, absolutely. But you person to do much than conscionable pharmacy. Health attraction is nan easiest business I've ever been progressive with. Because it's truthful easy to understand. You spell to nan doctor, you either get bully news, mean news, aliases bad news, right? If you get bully news and you request nothing, you conscionable locomotion retired nan door. If you person to bargain something, attraction aliases a medication, there's only 2 questions: How overmuch does it cost, and really do you salary for it?

That's it. How overmuch does it costs and really do you salary for it is nan underpinning of our full wellness attraction system, nan financial side, and we've conscionable fucked that up royally. So nan mobility becomes really do you simplify each of that? So conscionable deliberation astir what happens. How do you get your ain individual wellness insurance?

Through my job.

OK. And your occupation astir apt offers you a mates plans each year, right? Then you make a decision: small spot much successful premiums, a small spot little successful premiums, a small spot much successful deductible. Has anybody ever asked you for a in installments cheque for your deductible to spot if you could spend it?

Absolutely not, Mark.

And you cognize that location are group that you activity pinch that can't spend their deductible, you cognize they're conscionable stuck.

The security companies cognize that too. And that's why they create those precocious deductible plans, because if you can't spend it aliases personification can't spend it, they're conscionable collecting premiums and that's ne'er coming retired of pocket. And past what happens is those aforesaid group still request wellness care.

So let's conscionable opportunity personification useful pinch you astatine WIRED and they make $30,000 aft taxes successful California, which is being broke, right? But it's not debased capable for Medicare. They request care. They spell to nan doctor. You say, “Here's my security card.” And they say, “OK, your deductible is ...” You outcry and locomotion retired nan door. But now nan infirmary aliases supplier will say, “OK, we will thief you fig it out,” because they want to get money from nan security company. So they'll either link you to a financing institution aliases they'll finance it themselves. We've turned providers, hospitals, nan full healthcare strategy into subprime lenders.

Right. Yes. We have.

So what happens past is you perceive astir each this horrific aesculapian debt. It's because nan plans person been designed successful a measurement knowing that group can't spend their deductibles, wherever they're retired of pocket. A family of 4 making, you know, $97,000 a year, a 100 1000 dollars a year, isn't rich, but they person a $19,200 max retired of pocket. That's almost 20 percent of their income. If thing horrible happens, ain't cipher affording that. Right? And yet. What do we do? So we person sewage to commencement to reside that issue.

I judge we've asked you this before, but why do this? You're a businessman astatine nan extremity of nan day. Is Cost Plus Drug Company lucrative for you? Is location a return connected finance successful this endeavor astatine this point?

No.

No. No money.

Nope. I'm not, I'm not losing a lot. I'm losing little and little each day.

How overmuch money are you losing each year?

Enough that, you know, I'm not gonna spell broke.

Fair. Do you expect that changing?

I dream so.

So you'd for illustration to spot a return connected finance connected this?

No, not a return. I’d for illustration to beryllium capable to reinvest further, to do more. I’d for illustration for it to beryllium that our pricing is truthful bully and we person truthful galore patients and customers that alternatively of it being costs positive 15 percent, it's costs positive 14 percent.

You're intelligibly a very outspoken person. You're besides a very online person. You're connected societal media, and I mostly interact pinch your worldly connected Bluesky, and I cognize you've had immoderate very beardown words for them successful nan past fewer months. What are your existent thoughts connected Bluesky?

I deliberation they screwed up. It's go a small organization pinch a batch of lines successful nan soil astir what's accepted and what's not, which is nan antithesis of a societal network, and peculiarly 1 that has so, truthful galore awesome tools. Trying to push group retired of their religion is not very church-like.

I conscionable deliberation that's unfortunate, because a twelvemonth ago, it was amazing. You know, I retrieve posting things, getting a 1000 responses and not 1 azygous hateful response.

Right.

Those days are gone, and I deliberation that was a missed opportunity. Could they get it back? Yeah, 'cause they've sewage immoderate really smart group moving there. But I deliberation they still person excessively overmuch of an accent connected nan technology, not capable from nan individual-user-experience perspective. Even if they siloed communities intentionally. Like each nan Republicans spell here, we'll protect you. We tin protect you present because it's nan 1 level that genuinely is moderated.

From a tech constituent of position I deliberation that what they're doing pinch decentralization is incredible.

But it's not enough. From a business perspective, decentralization is awesome technologically, and it creates opportunities for group to create applications that tin really do a bully job. But you're not gonna compete pinch X, you're not gonna compete pinch Instagram getting group to do nan activity for you. Even Reddit doesn’t require nan mods to do overmuch work.

What would you for illustration to spot them do otherwise then? What's it gonna take?

If nan full thought is to person your ain server, create immoderate different servers that branch disconnected of nan homepage, truthful that Republicans tin spell successful there. But nan infinitesimal I opportunity that, [Bluesky users say] “We don't request nary fucking Republicans. Get those fucking Nazis outta here.”

Then they artifact you immediately.

Yeah, I'm nan 4th most-blocked person.

Congratulations. I deliberation JD Vance is astir apt still number one.

Probably.

Alright, earlier we end, I wanna play a small game. It's called Control, Alt, Delete. It's like, Fuck, Marry, Kill for nerds.

OK.

So I wanna cognize what portion of tech you would emotion to control, what you would emotion to alt, truthful change aliases change, and what you would delete. What would you vanquish from nan world if fixed nan opportunity?

I would delete societal media for anybody nether 18 from nan earth. I would emotion to power each nan algorithms that exist.

What would you do? What would you do pinch nan algorithms?

I'd people nan root code. I would make disposable to nan parents of immoderate insignificant nan HTML record pinch each video aliases station that was viewed by your kid who's nether nan property of 18, truthful that group know. I really went to TikTok and I told them that, suggested that, and they said, “No, 'cause past group would reverse technologist our algorithm.”

Then successful position of alter, I don't know. AI.

How would you change it?

I would make it much democratic. I would conscionable unfastened up arsenic overmuch of it arsenic I could, because nan title is truthful accelerated and truthful expensive. You're buying and you're buying each nan exertion that you can. You're inventing each nan exertion you can, and it's almost instantly retired of date. When you're successful that environment, you person to interest astir what you're doing yourself, which is why you spot Meta trying to salary each these successful insane bonuses to get nan best.

It’s wild.

As agelong arsenic you've sewage nan champion talent and you've sewage personification pinch awesome ideas, arsenic agelong arsenic you've sewage your ain Jony Ive, utilizing an Apple analogy, you tin beryllium much open. You don't person to beryllium afraid. You don't person to clasp back.

So you want to spot AI improvement move moreover faster than it already is?

Yes, it has to because China ain't waiting for nobody.

What happens if China quote-unquote wins that race?

We're fucked.

First lemme return a measurement back. Winning, right? There's still a agelong measurement to go. AI still is efficaciously stupid. It doesn't person nan intuition, it doesn't person nan immediacy of a worldview that group have. So it's still dumb now. It still makes it smart astatine processes and nan things we've talked about, but I don't spot this large wide threat successful position of a takeover successful nan adjacent 20 years.

To sum up, you want to change AI truthful that nan manufacture moves faster. We unrecorded successful nan Matrix, but each of nan videos that my kid is generating utilizing Sora 2, you want maine to person a copy?

For sure.

By nan way, nan champion measurement to cognize what your kid is into is by looking astatine their Instagram and TikTok feed. That'll show you much astir your child. But successful immoderate event, that has much effect connected everything that happens. And again, going backmost to politics, whoever controls nan algorithm controls nan world.

With that successful mind, really are we emotion astir Larry Ellison today?

To beryllium determined. I won't jump to immoderate conclusions. Let's spot what happens. Because it could backfire. Just because you person power doesn't mean you win. There is surely a risk. But consequence not conscionable to nan output from nan algorithms but consequence to really he operates nan company. And, you cognize Zuckerberg's gonna do each he tin to fuck him up, and you cognize Elon's gonna do each he tin to fuck him up.

That's nan existent conflict of nan oligarchs correct there.

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